I would have booked you for the whole evening and offered $1000, free dinner and a stay at a good hotel. ;)

Cool story Derek. Now where's the longer version?
You can read it twice if you like ☺ — Derek

I love it!

My fellow Derek fans:
You can read this as a cute story, and go on to other things, or you can STOP and try to think it through. Maybe not now, but once in a while.

If you return to the matter while you are walking, or riding the bus, then there is a chance that "it can become part of you" to question the norms.

Cool, less time more charge. a very special perspective to deal with pricing. Besides, after reading this, I would like to say, people pay you for the value you bring not for the hours you spend.

Haha. This is so you, Derek.
Thank you for sharing, it made me smile big :)

one more thing.. I shared this story with my girlfriend and she was like
"The girl/woman should have asked him to play for 3 hours!"
Ha! Good wit. ☺ — Derek

We are rethinking how we charge clients at our business, I like your creative response! I am going to work on coming up with a creative response for our potential clients when we discuss price, love it!

Thank you for the email updates! This is a great and simple message. I loved her final offer to you

Who couldn't like this?

LOVE THIS. I remember when you told me this story on our call :)
Speaking of which. We need another soon

i.love.this.

I love this and I read it twice! :)

Great story for shifting the focus from money to fun and creativity! Please share more short and impactful stories like that!

My plumber told me after I made him a cup of tea once that he charges people who don’t make him one an extra £5 on every job. His pricing philosophy is based on a value he holds that everyone should be considerate. I never forget to make him a tea!

I love this! Someone once asked my artist mother how long it took her to do a certain painting. She said, "All my life." Same goes for musicians. It's not just the actual time one spends playing for someone. There are years of learning and woodshedding that all contribute to that gig, so it's not just a matter of a warm body being "on the clock."

Love the story!
Thanks Derek :)

artful economics.

Also goes to show honesty pays.

Ha, this is beautiful! Put joy before the price and things do take care of themselves. Takes alot of self confidence and self honesty, inward to outward rather than outward to inward! Thank you!

Derek, you price it, you slice it, you philosophice it... like a BOSS.

Amen to this I still follow it

I love the article.

The one thing I might amend is the "I'm going to charge you more."

You've absolutely got me in the right mindset that the hardship for you, the musician, is to have to leave the stage too soon. I'd let the actual "charge you" wording reflect that same lighthearted and winsome sentiment.

Make it something like, "I'm going to need to get (or make) more to make up for having to leave the stage too soon."

Oh and the title is super close. What do you think about "The Musician's Marketing Mindset."

Cheers!
Izolda

Questioning norms is one of my favorite pastimes. I've learned that applying this to yourself and the norms you've created for yourself is equally as important as applying it societal norms.

I totally agree.
When I do a concert, the WORK is:
disconnecting my equipment
packing my equipment
driving to the airport
driving to the venue
unpacking my equipment
connecting my equipment
.............then after the concert
disconnecting my equipment
packing my equipment
driving to the airport
driving to my home
unpacking my equipment
connecting my equipment


Doing the actual concert is THE FUN PART!

Funny how people (usually non-musicians) think playing music is just a piece of cake. They don't take into affect the hours of practice, costly equipment, and of course like you mention, the traveling. I remember years ago singing Dire Straits "Money For Nothing" and hating the lyrical meaning of the song.

Thank you, derek, for addressing the subject of the hour! How much to charge for a requested composition? How much to charge to come and perform it for the celebration? Is it fair to charge at all? Is it fair to charge friends?

I love it!

I very much like the idea of applying intuition and creativity to pricing - along with humor and "chutzpah" or "cojones". In general the attachment to money - whether it manifests by making more than one really needs or less than one really needs, perhaps kills creativity. Once money overrides meaning there is a loss of autonomy. In my small teaching business (guitar to young people) which is offering some steady income these days in addition to my creative and performing projects, I find that taking a dedicated family at sliding scale may have more value that a less dedicated family at my full rate. That is because the values they are giving me go beyond money. However, as someone who still deals with significant conflicts regarding money and my creative projects, I must always be aware of the phenomenon of "under-earning" lurking behind my decisions. Often this phenomenon is one and the same as "under-being". Still working on that one...

I am not even remotely a musician but this is so pertinent to me. Pricing can be such a struggle for me, sometimes it takes me years to ask for what I am worth. I think this is not just about challenging the norms, but your own sense of self worth. Its highly unlikely that anyone is going to find you to be more valuable than you find yourself. As always, your words come at the perfect time. You are one of my most valued mentors. Thank you again, Derek!

Yes!! I appreciate your "creative" side on the monetizing Derek. My first album was a financial flop...following the "free" this and the .99 cent that!What a newbie sheep I was... How wonderful if 10,000 people or more bought one song...didn't work out like that...pricing of "art" deserves a raising of standards. And I learn...;)

Ahhhhh🙉🎸🚙

If you charge for the work, you can give away the fun for free. :)

I love this concept. At the same time, I feel like there’s something of an “uncanny valley” with this sort of personalization, where it comes off as forced or awkward if done carelessly. Systemized, routine responses work well because both parties are on familiar ground, and if you’re taking them off that familiar ground, you need charisma and sincerity to back your new response up.

You're insane. I love it. Corey

This is a good story and very useful to me. I provide consulting services to NGOs and other organizations, and I am going to think hard about how this story could affect my pricing (and what I love to do and don't).

HAHAHA. You could make a very brilliant merchant career as well, don't you

Yes, people pay for reasons instead of money.

Cheer up!

I've got a better deal for you. Come to my house, you pay me 1,000 dollars and you can play for 6 hours!

Love, love, LOVE this story, Derek.

I'm not sure that "the fun part" should come into the equation.

As someone they are hiring, I think they would rather hear "opportunity to entertain your audience - which as a performer I love to do" which, while less concise, put the emphasis on how you value the the are proposing as opposed to "how I feel about it".

In addition, a lot of artists are not confident in their abilities offstage (read; "negotiation"). You're cocksure approach is entertaining yet rare. Realistically I don't see many other artists, especially ones starting off, emulating your bravado with the same efficacy.

Feedback:
Considering adding a final part to put your final paragraph of dialogue into context with the rest of your book.
In the spirit of how you do anything shows how you do everything:

(from looking down your list of titles)

You revealed your self not through just words but through your action of choosing a price
You showed your personal value of BEING a performer, not just HAVING gig money.
You cheerfully communicated your quirky real self, without being a complainer.

Fantastic!

What an interesting way of thinking, and very inspiring!

I've been reading Misbehaving, and here comes a great example of the transaction utility!

Great and inspiring story! Will share this with my students!

Like your style too. In the UK, we're not known for our generosity. But this "either or" close is a good one I can keep in mind. Love your answer to Derek's comment :o) John E

I had a business colleague who pitched for marketing funds to the board and when he got knocked back, he raised the amount he was asking for. It worked! I was amazed so I have seen it done though I've not tried it myself. Negotiating is always tricky, but I do know that accepting lower and feeling bad about it is not so nice, it's better to negotiate in good faith and be reasonably happy with the outcome. Good article.

Awesome Derek.

This story reminds me of another one where in a jewelary store a particular piece of jewelery priced at $20 was not selling. The owner signalled to the salesman to reduce the price by 50%. The salesman mistook her instructions to be increase the price 10 times to $200. The next day the piece was sold for $200.

Sometimes expensive does mean better.

I love this. This is gold

Okay, that was good haha... was not expecting that :)

I really dig this! Great reframe of norms. Inspiring fasho, thanks!

Very good story. Second line, I think you're missing a word (...'one time a college'. Should be 'one time at a college') 😉 you did ask for input, lol.

Bulk pricing in a way ;) Wholesale show (by the hour) vs. retail show :). Great story

Love it! For years I've been telling people that they pay me to drive. Once there I'll play as much as they like, because that's the fun part. Your anecdote, however, adds a delightful twist. Please let me remember this when next someone tries to save by cutting my performance time.

BTW - Linda - One time a college asked ... Derek's grammar is fine!

Dead on Derek- printed t-shirts or business cards, same economics...it's the set-up; the more you print, cost per item drops in yen, pounds, Euro, US.
Thanks for your insights

Exactly!

Brilliant!

I like this story! As a freelance medical writer/editor, I need to value my time/effort/talents because the client does not always understand what is involved in hiring me. If I undervalue myself, so will others!

Thanks,
Saskia

Always a problem for me, even for a wedding or memorial service. I've come to learn people need to hear your charge as you see it. They can always finagle it down.

Excellent creative and positive response from you. This is probably old and tired, (and perhaps less creative and more negative) but I used to get a lot of "We don't have a budget, but you'll get a TON of exposure!" My response "Yes, well most people die from exposure. I actually need cash to survive."

Thanks for all your great articles and about me page. Have a lovely day!

Derek, I love that post. It is amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. All the best, Andreas

Well put Derek. I have often said similar to event coordinators but have not usually gotten such a positive response ~.^) added to that is the environmental impact of bringing bands long distances for short times. for festivals or all day events I advocate for less groups but longer period of time. I'll even sit this one out...

Great and Fun story, Derek. Yeah, in all fields do we have to take on challenges like this. If not for the challenge of getting one's way, we would lose the drive to accomplish the impossible.

Excellent post. I do the same thing with commissions (I am a classical composer). I charge the same rate for a commission for a solo flute piece as I do a symphonic work. Why? Because I really want to compose symphonic works and larger pieces in general, and sometimes a larger prices scares some people away. However, I find that when people know that they'll get more bang for their buck, I usually get commissions for works for larger forces, because people would much rather pay for more notes on the page rather than less. And what happens if they actually still want the flute solo? I do it, and as with everything I do, I put all my effort into it, because I know full well that they really want it, especially if they're willing to pay the symphonic rate for a flute solo.

Never cheapen yourself! Decide on your worth aka hourly rate or flat rate and stick with it!

Nice Story Derek.
Did the lady pay you $1500 ?
What do the music symbols mean at the end?
Yep! The symbols are a hand-drawing of £ ¥ € $ : pound, yen, euro, dollar. Currency. — Derek

Very nice Derek! I love your posts! I have thought about doing this many times when I get offered a long-distance gig, but it seemed so absurd to me that I didn't actually say what I was thinking, but after reading this I think I will from now on, maybe even for local gigs, since you are so right on - everything before and after the performance is what I need to get paid for! :)

I dig your approach to pricing your self. Club owners are difficult to part with money because it appears that there are so many acts wanting stage time and will accept peanuts making it difficult for the rest. Thanks again for your time succinct story.

As Warren Buffet says: Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.

So, how much do you value yourself & what you do? Is your money story preventing you from appreciating your own worth? Would charging a fair amount mean that you're taking what you do seriously or is the starving downtrodden misunderstood artist the only way you can value or give yourself & your music meaning?

Right on point as always. I plan to get a copy of the new book.

Derek, this piece made me LOL.....it's true, sometimes when you're actively in the business you gotta present your philosophy behind your pricing or your philosophy in general, if it's sound then I think people will generally agree and cooperate with you.

Absolutely spot on! Our time is very valuable too. I’ve always started fee calculation with the travel time. I’ve often also had such fun at a gig that I happily continue performing way over the time I charged for- obviously checking that the client does not mind 😊

ha I love that. Good example of being creative in all aspects of the business, even the pricing.

When Akio Morita showed his first transistor radio to Macy's, he was asked the price for 1,000 units. He quoted a price. The Macy's buyer then asked the price for 10,000 units. Mr. Morita said that he would have to think about that and get back to the buyer the next morning. The following morning, the price he quoted was substantially higher! When asked why, he said, "I will have to build a new plant to sell you that many radios. With a single purchase, I have to amortize the entire cost over this one order." He then got a commitment for a multi-year purchase.

Derek,

What a great story!

I've played music since I was 10, done umpteen gigs, was on the road and continue to play and book music in restaurants, clubs, wine bars, festivals, etc. The perception and unfortunately the reality of getting reasonable pay for what musicians do is still a struggle, if not more so today. Giving artists and musicians tools to arm themselves and stand-up for what they do and obtain good compensation is desperately needed.

Derek, that's certainly a new way of looking at pricing things ... a new way for me anyway.

Thanks for that. ☺

Nice story--no fluff.

norms that CAN be questioned crumble when subjected to simple tests like the one in your "story". This is because for some people pricing is strictly about product value, while there is also the input costs to consider.

You spend 12 hours (opportunity cost) so the price changes dramatically depending on how the pay-off affects the OC. For instance, if i were to negotiate with you, I would have said:

we offer you hotel and food for free--plus station pickup if dont drive, or car-wash if you drive--and you get to choose how many hours YOU want to play: what is your fee for THAT?

This can further be improved if there is the option of 'you choose your own songs/music'.

People think only customers have choices: if suppliers are given choices, customers benefit more creatively.

You always have some theories which seem different from others but absolutely right.
Like your thoughts.

What I love is knowing that you can charge those who can afford it a reasonable amount whilst being able to offer the same to those exactly the same for far less. I went to a ballet boarding school for a year & when the parents because were struggling financially It was agreed that they would pay the fees in potatoes because they were potato farmers.

Derek, that is exactly what I would do in that situation. Club owners just don't think about a band's expenses to get to the gig!! I hope everyone reads this!

Love you, always,
Carole ☺

nice, define your pricing model and defend it with your own value perspective.

Yes! I work by the same thoughts on this subject. A big problem I have found is because I am winning big awards with my music out in Hollywood, Calif. places do not call me back for the next years show because they assume my prices went up from winning another award. OR - I call them to make plans for the next year and they say we hired a know-body to fill the slot due to we thought we could not afford you anymore, did not ask me.
I have sort of pick up on my basic time is $1.00 a min. with a base of $60.00 to start plus if travel I figure that in also.

Awesome! I not only love the way you think, I love the way you stand up for what you think. And people respond. You're my mentor on that.

Love this way of thinking! <3

This has already been useful. Thank you.

Great story and lesson! What I take away from this is to weave your values into your fee - and don't accept offers that don't honour your value(s)!
This lesson is transferable to all areas of life!
Thank you, Derek!

This one is amazing! I know people who do it the other way around. They charge more if they are required to work more. I always thought that was the norm. Now I'm just thinking 'does that mean they don't enjoy what they do so much?'

Thanks Derek!

Applicable not only in music but in life! Great stuff. Thanks for sharing

This article kind of reminds me of the "magic triangle" that I and others used to use in the movie business;..cheap, fast, good.....pick two. The cost of a show is ALWAYS the time and work it takes to get there. The rest is more or less kick-back-and-enjoy-it time.

Exactly! Again well said , these little blips of marketing wisdom have come at the right time ! Thankyou
Diane

This one is very clear about how to be creative with your pricing and not be afraid to show what you care about with reasoned logic.

Same can be said for writing shorter songs that have a bigger emotional impact over long opuses that leave listeners flat.

I loved it, I loved it. I enjoy the message I get across and how well I do a performance. I don't mind staying on stage for a while either, in fact I love it, it's my life, Salvation and lively hood. I love what I do.

I know exactly what you mean. $1500 to $2000 was genuinely interesting.

Thanks for sharing please keep them coming

Pastor Rev Tina Redden

This is so true. Creative pricing can help you land the deal. A friend of mine got consulting gigs only when he raised his prices. In the past he always tried to underbid everyone but it didn’t work. The clients perceived his low pirice as low value.

I like the concept. I need to play with pricing in an imaginative way.
I'm going to let my mind ruminate with this for a while. Hopefully I'll come up with something that works for me. Thanks for posting.
Mike

Excellent

This reminds me of the Marx Brothers routine, where Groucho asks Chico how the musicians were to be paid. The punch line is something like, "If we don't show up, you couldn't afford it."

Hi Derek

Really love this article.
It highlights whats really important to the creative.

Jim

loved it, thanks 🙏🏽

Time is our most precious commodity. Who wants to spend it hauling music gear? Brilliant!

I love this idea: "Pour your personality and philosophy into the way you do business."

This encourages me to do more of this.

Thanks Dereks! Hope you're doing great and Wish you all the best!

Hello! Heard something that one should never give a discount as a freelancer, not only does it devalue your work but will also make other clients less trusting and possibly mad if found out. However, if a discount is already given. What do you suggest/ how to handle the situation now? Is the client that received the discount less likely to continue working with you?

this was usefull

Derek, love this story and the words behind. Loving your craft is a way to go and enjoy.

this was helpful

I just looked this article up again for inspriation because I am getting nickled and dimed for performances now that I am back on land. Thanks for keeping this out there.

Call me middle aged, but I can remember writing a commercial is school back in grade two. That was when creativity was less valued. And conformity was big, back when advertising would tell you the value and details of a product, and the science of how it worked. So I did. I wouldn't now.

Now even something real expensive, such a car, a commercial will have nothing to reassure you about the value for your money, but rather a creative thing thing like flying it in clouds past unicorns... Kids these days have money to burn.

So ya, creative is cool.

Interesting yet deep.