California Bill Would Require Computer Science For High School Graduation - Slas...

Posted by EditorDavid

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  Was called "programming" back then. Eventually that went away. Way to be on the ball Cali.

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      I had to supplement my children's education to give them a basic understanding of algebra and pre-calculus. The last of them graduated from HS a few years ago. The district called it a "temporary hiccup" things like Riemann sums and linear programming were not in any available curriculum.
      
      This country has been chewed up, digested, and is oozing through the sewers now.
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      • • Re: Some states did that in the 1980s.

          Or, you know actually teach the students the required subjects.

          You'd be amazed how much of a typical 45 minute period in, say, a math class is spent on non-math related topics.

          I wonder, did this bill extend school hours to accommodate the new topic, and if not, what class will be dropped to accommodate this forward-thinking new graduation requirement?

          Also - does this mean that California's Public Schools haven't been teaching computer programming classes for the last fifty years? (I attended a private middl

          • Re: Some states did that in the 1980s.

            Some California high schools have dedicated engineering programs. It depends on how wealthy your community is. The average California high school sucks. They rank about the 40th state nationally quality. Adding a new subject won't help solved the problem. They don't generally teach the existing required subjects well.

      • Karmarkar Algorithm

        Linear programming isn't covered in your child's HS, so you had to teach them linear programming.

        Simplex, or did you home-school on the Karmarkar interior-point algorithm?

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    Back then, when you turned on a computer, it would prompt you with a programming language.
    Nowadays it do everything in its power to stop you from writing your own programs, with many popular devices being impossible to do so without unlocking the hardware.

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        Welcome to the paperless future!

        We have been trying to reduce the amount of printing required by our staff for years.

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• Is absolutely no point the flooding the market with that many people when we're already bringing in tons of cheap labor from overseas and there's no sign of that spigot getting turned off.
  
  Computer science, real computer science is just math. What this is going to be is cheap vocational school because companies like Amazon burn through their programmers working them 60 or 70 hours a week and they can only get so many h-1bs before people notice

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    You think all these kids are going to learn enough computer anything to be employable from the same high schools that aren't teaching large numbers of them how to read or perform basic math?

    Don't worry, you're not going to lose your high end tech job to a high school trained student.

    • Amazon will hire anything with a pulse

      And then proceed to eliminate that pulse. That's why whenever you see those stupid "boot camps" talk about their new hires they're always at Amazon.
      
      Like their warehouses Amazon tech burns through employees. Unlike their warehouses they don't have enough disposable people to get away with that indefinitely.

      • Re:

        Amazon has warehouse blue collar employees who are pure manual labor and technical white collar staff like everyone else. Their technical staff are not high school level dip shits.

        I would never take a job there but not because the other staff are dumb. They are not. I wouldn't do it because they have zero concept of work life balance and burn people out very fast. But they are not technically poor.

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    Behind computer science is more than math.
    E.g. how a computer actually works. Protocols and technology.
    And stuff like data structures and algorithms on them, especially concurrent: is not "just math".

    • Re:

      All that stuff is math.
• With new generations actually being educated, who will be left to propose rewriting backends in node.js? (sorry couldn't resist)

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    How is your rust implementation of node.js coming along?

• CS is hard - and a substantial proportion of the population will not pass this. Therefore the quality of the CS offered will be rather low to ensure this doesn't lower graduation levels even further (or they'll hand out passes for nothing... a recent documentary about refugee kids reported than an illiterate kid was getting As and Bs at an Atlanta Middle School).

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    We used to call that "social promotion".

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    It depends on what level of CS they are going for. If teaching the basics of "a program does something in steps", "this is what a function does", and stuff along those lines, that sort of makes sense. Even if it is just teaching kids the basics of a PC, like what a filesystem is, what an OS is, how to install an OS, why backups are important, what types of backups... not CS per se, but basic computer literacy. There are people out there who have no ideas where their files are stored because they lived th

• their grade level now. What will a CS education do for them?

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    Teach them that computer science is based upon white supremacy, the patriarchy and colonialism.
    
    You think the above is a joke? Look what University of Michigan School of Education and George Washington University Graduate School of Education and Human Development Deans have to say:
    
    "Math proficiency is white supremacy, proclaims Deborah Lowenberg Ball, a mathematics professor and former dean of the University of Michigan School of Education. In the latest episode of the EdFix Podcast, Ball complains tha

    • Re: 90% of graduates can't read, write or do Math

      The quotes are pretty damn out of context and manipulated.

• I’m 100% for adding a computer SKILLS AND LITERACY requirement. Throw in a requirement related to internet skills and you’ve got a real winner. That stuff is absolutely necessary for anyone who wants to be above the poverty level in today’s world.

  
  
  But coding? Sorry, that’s a specialty under-the-hood type of skill. It’s the difference between being able to drive a car, and being able to disassemble and repair your transmission. One of these things is required, and one is a specialty profession.

  
  
  This is being pushed by SV types and computer people who are probably brilliant programmers but unable to make buttered toast or navigate a room with more than 15 people in it.

  
  
  In any case, the bottom 10 percent of students are near-functionally illiterate and always will be. Coding as a requirement for high school graduation? Ridiculous. And while we’re on the subject. Basic-level algebra/trig, physics, chemistry and biology would all rank higher in importance than coding.

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    Because auto and hvac [sic] repair can be learned on the job in a few minutes.

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      LOL. Right, and someone who learns java script in a few minutes is ready to write the payroll software for your employer.

      • Re:

        He was sarcastic, seems you missed that. So I took the liberty to point that out:P

    • Re:

      You have an interesting take on what 'a few minutes' means. I think you mean 'a few years'.

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    • Is that you Mayor Bloomberg?

      Is that you Mister Bloomberg?
      
      “I could teach anybody, even people in this room, no offense intended, to be a farmer.

      It’s a process. You dig a hole, you put a seed in, you put dirt on top, you add water, up comes the corn. You could learn that.”
      2020 Democratic Presidential nomination contender Michael Bloomberg
      Former mayor of New York City.

      • Re:

        Um wow. The ignorance Bloomberg demonstrates is "excessive".

        Note: I went to high school in Nebraska. The capital, actually. Still "Corn Country" meant that I was taught about corn. Anyways, back on ignorance, almost willful ignorance. Many of the first colleges started in the USA were specifically farmer's colleges, for teaching agricultural skills. Sure, you can start very easily, but that will just end up with a dead crop. Like my growing attempts.

        For farming, planting the seed is the "easy" part.

        • Re:

          I studied computer science in the 1980s in California. I made a friend in the agriculture department, one day we had to stop by the ag computer lab. It was better than what we had in cs. I was blown away by all the specialty software for planning and managing crops. Determining fertilizer and water needs, etc. It was impressive to a young computer nerd. And it was all considering profitability not just efficiency, so a young business nerd would probably have been impressed too. And this was 40 years ago.

        • No wonder you have trouble with HVAC

          You sig as much as admits you "don't read AC."

          If you don't read about one, how do you expect to make repairs on an AC?

          • Re:

            One of these days I need to change my sig.
            AC in this case is Anonymous Cowards, not Air Conditioning, Alternating Current, Access Control, Actinium, Absorbtion Chiller, etc...

            I actually have a pretty good grasp of how air conditioning works theory wise. It's the practice that gets messy.

        • Re:

          It gets even more complicated in a country like Thailand, where half the farmers are hobbyists/retires from a real job and most of the other farmers have no real equipment.
          That means the tractor for plowing needs to be hired. And those tractors owners work day and night (necessary as sun drops at 18:30/19:00)
          So you have to interact with the neighbours, who when hires a tractor. As the tractor owner does not like to visit an area dozens of times. Same for the harvester.
          When rice is ripe, it simply crashes to

      • I have a tree named "Bloomberg"

        The white-tail deer girdled the bark on an apple tree I had just planted.

        Following the former NYC Mayor's instructions, I cut off the top, dug a hole, dropped in the cutting, filled it with dirt and watered it.

        I thought it withered and died, but the next spring it started sprouting leaves. Michael Bloomberg really knows how to hack agriculture.

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          And then it died as it was constantly in the shade of the older and larger apple trees.:-)

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    To be more explicit, coding is a shop class. Its for those who have a curiosity, to learn if they have aptitude. So you offer an intro class for the curious, and more advanced classes for those with aptitude.

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    But coding? Sorry, thatâ(TM)s a specialty under-the-hood type of skill. Itâ(TM)s the difference between being able to drive a car, and being able to disassemble and repair your transmission. One of these things is required, and one is a specialty profession.
    While the analogy is oki, CS is more on the levle of designing a car and engineering it *AND* considering how the factory needs to be run to produce them.

• AI will be doing this all in 10 years time. Why train kids for obsolete professions?

  I truly don't know whether or not to add a/s tag.

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    It's not "why", it's "why bother".

    CA is doing horrible producing students who have a good understanding of English and math. With even our poor graduation rates (lower than 85%), it's even worse than that because we've lowered our standards to achieve even that.

• Programming teaches logical thinking and how to break problems down in to solvable pieces. Hell, just BASIC is fine.

• And maybe guide them through the process of forming a business entity to minimize taxes on their gig work income?

  • Re: How bout some personal finance?

    Exactamente. We need personal finance-literate kids graduating from high school â" this is fundamental to their success as individuals and participants in what should be our unapologetically capitalist society. With respect to California requiring âoethisâ or California requiring âoethatâ, this is what you get when you allow the state to control your kidsâ(TM) education. Communism, my friends, has never worked and never will. The Peoples Republic of California is rotten to

  • Re:

    I wonder if this proposal stated what would be dropped to make room for this. Personally, as a programmer, I can think of a ton of other things I'd add first: American history, English, economics, civics, European history, psychology, non-western history, music (either performance or appreciation), languages, home economics, shop, business, how to detect bulls**t on social media. Or how about we make sure California students are competent at the curriculum we already have?

• Computer Science is not a high school topic, at best it will be an introduction to computer programming. In reality, such a class is a shop class not a core class. You offer it to kids who might be curious, and for those who have an interest you offer more. Just like metal shop, auto shop, etc. You don't force ill-prepared kids to take a programming class.
  
  A computer literacy class, where they learn about word processors, spreadsheet, how the internet usually lies and email and texts with links are usually malware. Yeah, that could be a required class for all, unlike programming.
  
  A real Computer Science class is an advanced placement level class for kids taking the advanced math classes. Its not for everyone.

  • Computer science? Or computer literacy?

    I took computer classes in high school. The first semester "Computer I" class was mostly about what I'd call "computer literacy", how to perform basic operations on a computer and an introduction to various applications like a word processor, spreadsheet, database, drawing/graphics, and so on. The second semester "Computer II" class did have some programming and basics of the science like different sorting algorithms and how to build our own database.

    With computers being introduced to children at much you

    • Re:

      Our naming conventions are different but I don't think our respective classes are that different. Wood Shop I, Metal Shop I, Auto Shop I are just the intro and basics classes. That's about all school's push students to take. Beyond that was strictly elective. II and III of the series can get into quite advanced topics. Shop classes can get quite involved, real world vocational. III probably where AP would start.

      • Re:

        When it comes to naming conventions we can get into how "computer science" is distinct from "software engineering".

        At university I was an engineering student but took a lot of computer science courses as that was part of the "software engineering" track. Back then the idea of teaching programmers like we teach engineers was very new, only recently has software engineering become a distinct discipline.

        I'd interact with people that majored in computer science and was just baffled at how little regard they ha

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          Ah the waterfall method. You do realize we stopped using that in the software profession about 20 years ago right?

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    I had computer science in High School, 1985 till 1987.
    We have two levels of courses in Germany. Basic and Advanced.
    Depending on Federal state, you have to pick 2 or 3 advanced topics.
    Unfortunately at my time CS was only taught on basic level, however that was close to a modern Batchelor (ad that time my university had no bachelor/master lasses but "Vordiplom" (diploma) and "(Haupt-)Diplom".

    Imagine a star, like a David star or something. That is what the high school covered. Paint it red. Now draw an outline

• In 2006 I was pulled aside by a chemistry professor (California 4-year system) needing a sounding board for frustration that over 40% of that semester's freshman chemistry class was lost to drop or fail. This course is a foundational requirement for all sciences, CS, and pre-clinical fields. It is in high demand, and constrained by available lab seats. The principal causes for failure were basic study habits and deficiency in ordinary algebra. The department instituted a qualifying exam and no-credit remedial pre-chemistry classes.

• I hear they're taking reading off the SATs down there lately.

  • I went to college in Alabama

    you ignorant clod!

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        If memory serves, the original was "Two bit, four flushing, lowdown inconsiderate clod."

• You can't force kids to learn how to program. No one would hire a kid that was forced to do it. You have to want to learn it and most schools already have some computer course as an elective already. Besides, the barrier to entry and self-education is almost non-existent these days.

  I'd rather they invest some time into developing life skills like personal finance and trade skills like auto shop. My mechanic says there is a dearth of mechanics, especially young mechanics with basic skills that would like

  • Auto mechanics are not well paid

    especially if they are employees of a dealership or large auto-repair shop.

    But, hey, so are people who code!

    • Re: Auto mechanics are not well paid

      Who told you that? The basic grunt won't get anything. You just have to stick with it a while, earn your stripes, get your certs. If you're a master diesel mechanic you are making more than most college grads.
• Quit wasting $
  CA's public school is decaying fast. There are undeveloped nations with SUPERIOR school systems to CA's public schools.
  CA, in fact America, needs to focus on getting our core right esp. in the primary schools. In secondary, for first 2 years, expand on that, and then allow for last 2 to move ppl into arenas that make sense. It makes no sense for someone that is not going to go to higher education to take up C. Sci. Instead, make sure that they have REAL LIFE SKILLS.

• Sure, if more people knew what a linked list was, we'd live in a better world.

    At the very least this will give young people the opportunity to discover if they might have an unexpected aptitude for the subject.

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    yeah, try a linked list in Rust. pal. Sure someone even wrote a library for it but the performance sucks rather than doing things the Rust way.

    you sure that's always going to be a useful thing?

    how about children learn to speak, read, write, do math, understand basic sciences?

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    There is a guy trolling me with his signature about double linked lists, 5555.

    • Re:

      Try a double linked list in Rust. Hint, ownership makes it a train wreck, it's not how you'd solve a problem needing a "list" in Rust. It's not a useful concept for all programming languages.

• But no one will care. Why? Because there a) are not enough CS teachers, and no plan to recruit, train and retain them, and b) an almost certainty that it will never be funded and resourced properly, and c) will have no interest or involvement by colleges (they never have), and d) have not even the pretence of preparing kids for a future major or minor in CS.

  Noting that I was suckered into rubber stamping CS standards for CA. Even then it was apparent that Google was driving this. What for? Still not appar

• As a computer geek, it seems like requiring computer geeks to advance in sports and social gatherings.

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    Not sure if you are a geek or a nerd or use the words interchangeable.

    Nerds: board games, probably Real Life Roal playing, oh I think the abbreviation is LARPing... what does it mean? Obviously computer games, if possible MOORGS.
    Geeks: no (or less) board games, another esoteric science as hobby or side job, martial arts, real games like Go or Chess, Marathon running, or something like rock climbing.

    A Nerd about something does not really need to be into computers... I guess once one defined one as: a fundu

• This is my state, and it never ceases to amaze me that the limits are off on the stupid here in our government.

  California schools are currently turning out highschool graduates who are dumber than ever before. They lack math skills, English skills, knowledge of history, geography, government, basic science etc, but they know how to deploy condoms and dental dams, are pretty sure there are 50+ human genders, and think the state was once racially segregated (it never was) and hosted slavery (never did). Into

• In China there are local places to buy electronics. Fry's, Weird Stuff, HSC, and Radio Shack gone. We can only hope than Anchor Electronics can hold out.

• I did some tutoring in a fairly low achieving school where fifth graders were taking a (I think required) "computer science" class. I was surprised - until it turned out it was mostly learning how to use Word and should have been called something else (perhaps "computer applications").

  Students certainly should be able to use and build a basic spreadsheet and use a basic word processing application before graduating from high school. This might be done thorough a "computer literacy" class -- but certainly sh

  • Re:

    By calling the class "Computer Science" the school can check off a required box on government mandates.

• California Bill...is he in any way related to Florida Man? I think we should be told.

• Where are you going to get the teachers for this? I was a high school computer science teacher for 18 years. I have a background in programming. During my two year course I taught students computer repair (CompTIA A+), networking (Network+ and the first two semesters of CCNA), and programming. Programming was a 9 week introduction using Python. To keep the students engaged and interested I used game programming techniques. The students I had were already interested in technology and had to apply for the 50

• One will only teach something if God Corporate asks them to, because it needs more drones with a certain skillset. The other will only teach material that gives them warm fuzzies, like that's the proper rubric for producing strong thinker citizens.

• Most people won't be designing software or computer internals.

  How about focusing on math, reading, speaking and writing? For bonus basic business and finances? Many graduates seem to have a problem with all those things, and a good job and good personal life can use those fundamental things.

  I had not one computer class and I'm making a living in devops. A high schooler needs computer science like a fish needs a bicycle.

• Don't get your knickers in a twist, this is not about education, it's about fundraising.

  The three primary sponsors ar all in the Bay Area Caucus, i.e. Silicon Valley. One represents Menlo Park. They are doing this so that when they knock on the doors on the doors of moneybags types in their districts they have a talking point. It's low hanging fruit. If they were in agricultural areas it would be about farming/agribusiness, say in rural California. If it was the South it would be about putting Jesus in the

• All I see here is "cargo cult teaching". CS and even coding is not something people generally need or want or are good at.

  Is this still about some way-too-large IT enterprises wanting cheaper coders? That will not work.