Canadian Judge Says Thumbs-Up Emoji Amounts To Contract Acceptance - Slashdot
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Canadian Judge Says Thumbs-Up Emoji Amounts To Contract Acceptance
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Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order. But the farmer argued that the emoji indicated only that he'd received the contract in the text message. "I deny that he accepted the thumbs-up emoji as a digital signature of the incomplete contract," Achter said in an affidavit to court. "I did not have time to review the Flax Contract and merely wanted to indicate that I did receive his text message."
Justice Timothy Keene said in his June decision that the thumbs-up emoji did meet signature requirements and therefore the farmer breached his contract. The judge pointed to a Dictionary.com definition of the thumbs-up emoji, which said it is used to express assent, approval or encouragement in digital communications. "This court readily acknowledges that a (thumbs-up) emoji is a non-traditional means to `sign' a document but nevertheless under these circumstances this was a valid way to convey the two purposes of a `signature,"' Keene wrote in his decision. Keene's decision noted the case is novel, but the judge said emojis are now commonly used.
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by Locke2005 ( 849178 ) on Thursday July 06, 2023 @06:05PM (#63663184)
So then a poop emoji is legally equivalent to "See you in court, you little shit"???-
Nope. Here is a reference for you so you may learn how to communicate competently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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In that case, the entire world's getting poop emojis from me.:D
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That's for ordering fertilizer.
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But the farmer argued that the emoji indicated only that he'd received the contract in the text message.
The buyer should have made sure that the farmer had agreed to the contract terms. A 'thumbs up' is pretty vague as a signature, especially when his text was "please confirm flax contract." People need to learn to text complete sentences. 'Confirm' in this case doesn't say whether he is asking if he is accepting the contract, or if he had received the contract.
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You could also argue just as easily it was the farmer's responsibility to make his response clear.
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Thumbs-up does carry meaning of agreement, validation, positiveness on the statement, it is not replacement for alternative response, like "thanks", addressing act of sending. There is another thing to this story: there was never further communication carrying decline, denial, or negotiation for alternate price. ONLY thumbs-up means ONLY validation in expression, nothing otherwise.
Finally, it is with the change of situation, that one party enters dispute and plays different claim. With accepting offer many
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I am an attorney, but probably not in your jurisdiction. This is not legal advice. If you want legal advice, pay my retainer first!
It's hardly a surprising ruling, nor any kind of breakthrough or change. In fact, it would be surprising if something like this *didn't* happen.'
It is *ancient* Common Law, long preceding the US/british split, that an offer can be accepted by an acceptance in the same medium. Offer by mail, it may be accepted by mail. offer by telegram, and it may be accepted by telegram.
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oh, and if prices had moved the other way, do you really think that the *farmer* wouldn't be maintaining that it's a contract?
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Why adult people expect that what they say/write/communicate cannot be taken seriously is beyond me. Obviously a naked "thumbs up" is clearly an OK/Yes/Go ahead/will do. Obviously, in informal contracts, informal acceptance is valid.
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*thumbs up*
Here, that means I read your comment, and I understand your passion. I just think you're utterly incorrect, and your "obvious" points are obviously wrong.
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A judge disagrees with you. Think you are more competent on the question?
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On the law? No. On what you wrote, and how a text "thumbs-up"/should/ be interpreted? Yes, of course.
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Well, good luck with ignoring contract law then...
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Judges don't ever get things wrong or make mistakes in the way they interpret the law?
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Why adult people expect that what they say/write/communicate cannot be taken seriously is beyond me. Obviously a naked "thumbs up" is clearly an OK/Yes/Go ahead/will do. Obviously, in informal contracts, informal acceptance is valid.
*thumbs up*
Here, that means I read your comment, and I understand your passion. I just think you're utterly incorrect, and your "obvious" points are obviously wrong.
And therein lies the problem, because you have two interpretations of the emoji. Obviously there are people (like
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Probably about the same time the OK gesture got re-interpreted as a hate symbol.
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In this particular case, I would say that the previous communication between the parties (regarding this contract) and the history of their prior business relationship is far more relevant than the meaning of the emoji.
They have done business before. They spoke on the phone about this deal. The image of the contract was sent as a "confirmation of what was discussed previously" message. It was acknowledged that it was received. No follow up disputing the "hey this is what we agreed to on the phone" messa
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The disconnect is that a judge has declared that a person said something they never said, and never intended to say.
That's pretty terrifying.
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The "thumbs-up" gesture in some countries means "up yours." So no, it does not "obviously" mean ok/yes.
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There are cultures where the thumbs up gesture is obscene, essentially meaning "up your bum".
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by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Thursday July 06, 2023 @06:54PM (#63663370)
Obviously a naked "thumbs up" is clearly an OK/Yes/Go ahead/will do.
There are cultures where the thumbs up gesture is obscene, essentially meaning "up your bum".
But is this the case in Canada? No? Then it doesn't apply.
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Indeed. The person above you is just being an asshole. And he knows it.
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It depends. What are the cultural heritages of the two parties involved?
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Completely irrelevant and no one cares.
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President Bush senior kinda stepped in it back in 1992 when he didn't know Australia had this radically different interpretation of the thumbs up, IIRC he gave a real big one out to the crowd just as he was stepping onto Air Force One to leave at the end of a diplomatic trip and got quite the shock at the reaction he got. I don't know if that's still how its generally interpreted down under these days, a lot can change in ~30 years but it was certainly a thing back then.
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Eh... are you sure you're not just misframing the issue, or complaint at hand?
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And you are asking this why? Are _you_ sure you are not just being disingenuous?
Spoken contracts are valid for a lot of things (usually hard to prove things though). So are written informal ones. Get over yourself.
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Every day in slack, we use thumbs up as "ok, sounds good", thanks, or ACK. If I respond to a contract with "ok sounds good" or thanks, that does not mean acceptance. It just means thanks for sending it along, I've seen and acknowledged your message. I would barely accept a thumbs up for a case handoff, never mind a formal contract unless I worded the message very specifically.
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Who has not simply confirmed receipt of an item with an emoji?
This is inane, and goes to show that whoever the judge was does not understand how people communicate over digital medium.
Personally, I would suggest that the seller's pattern of signing contracts, not responding to receipt of the contract with an emoji, should be the indicator to focus on here.
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Well, me for one. If I use it at all, a thumb's up emoji typically indicates agreement or approval - I'd never think of it as meaning "I received the item".
Not that I agree with the judge's ruling, though.
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This thread is actually very interesting to me. Thereâ(TM)s two distinct groups of people with two entirely different concepts of what this emoji means, who seem until now wholly unaware of the othersâ(TM) existence. For me at least, thumbs up means âoeyes/confirmedâ, not âoeI have received it, and will look laterâ. I wonder how many people Iâ(TM)ve miscommunicated with though.
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If I asked you "please check that you are capable of doing this" and you replied with a thumbs up, does that mean you are capable of doing it, or that you will check if you are capable of doing it?
the way I see it, someone asked someone else to do a task, and that someone else agreed to do that task at some point in the future. In this case, I'd have to disagree with the judge. The thumbs up was too ambiguous, and not equivalent to say, a handshake.
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Easy, just as with the original, without any further communication, the emoji means you are capable of doing it. If you are trying to communicate the latter, you would need additional follow-ups since it still implies that you will do *something* later. This farmer, and his attorney, are stupid as fuck. In fact, his entire defense is "I saw and confirmed receipt of your order and then willfully did absolutely nothing."
Handshakes don't mean anything special in business, and it is weird how many people think
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This is inane, and goes to show that whoever the judge was does not understand how people communicate over digital medium.
The basic problem: letting septuagenarian/octagenarian senile judges who think you get "the internets" by the hour on dialup, remain on the bench.
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Well, this isn't an American judge, so try again.
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This is an agricultural contract; most people here have zero experience in that area. Verbal contracts and orders in these types of circumstances are usually legally binding. You are right that this is not typcial of the contract law you are likely familiar with, but in agriculture this is a pretty obvious outcome. It probably wouldn't even be newsworthy if it weren't for the emoji slant.
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As far as I know there's no special set of laws that govern contracts in agriculture. Giving a thumbs up in an auction house would definitely signal acceptance, but in that circumstance the seller would know exactly what they're agreeing to. When you use electronic media you're moving to a another context and language should be precise and clear. In this case neither the request or the response were clear. It's very common in business to send an email that says "please confirm you received this contract"
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If anyone does not understand how people communicate over digital mediums, it's literally the farmer (Chris Achter) and you. This entire take is almost as stupid as the "signatures are your name in cursive" crowd (hint: they aren't).
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Most people, a thumbs up is generally understood to not just signal receipt, but approval.
And that's exactly what happened here.
The seller had established a pattern of responding with the "thumbs up" to proposed contracts and then fulfilling the contract with no further response, it's only when the price went up on this one that they backed out. I can understand why the buyer understood the thumbs up to mean an agreement. Whether the seller also understood the gesture as such is hard to say, perhaps he figu
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The article is not clear on that, but the seller has apparently confirmed a contract via text message before. This article has more detail;
https://www.canadianlawyermag.... [canadianlawyermag.com]
It seems typing "yup" has constituted a contract between the parties previously. It is hard not to consider the thumbs up emoji equivalent to "yup". -
Which emoji means message received, will consider later?
Or even an emoji meaning thinking about it?
Morse code has dot dash dot, ASCII has ACK.
OK is just as vague as a thumbs up.
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From the article: "Achterâ(TM)s lawyers argued that allowing an emoji to act as a signature or acceptance for contracts would open the flood gates for cases interpreting the meaning of the images."
Context is what matters.
You can also text "yes" instead. But what was the QUESTION? If the question was vague, then the answer is equally vague.
"The buyer, Kent Mickleborough, later spoke with Swift Current farmer Chris Achter on the phone and texted a picture of a contract to deliver the flax in November, adding âoeplease confirm flax contract."
Yep- vague. "please confirm contract" doesn't jibe with any legal text I have ever seen. Confirm what? That you think it is fair? That you saw got it? That you read it? That you agree to it? Had he said "do you agree to the terms of this contract?" and the other party sent a thumbs-up, that does seem to be an agreement made.
Both parties in this exchange were sloppy.
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None of this seems particularly complicated. Hard to litigate effectively, sure. But remember, there is such a thing as an oral contract. If it's a business arrangement (meaning I offer you goods and/or services in exchange for "consideration") and I say I am going to do something, no matter how I acknowledge that, you have a right to expect me to do what I said I was going to do.
Of course, relying on oral contracts is a notoriously bad idea. But they do exist.
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I often reply with a thumbs up when given something that I need to review, as a confirmation that I'll action it later.
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And you are probably in trouble in some way if several months then go by with zero follow up.
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> Both parties in this exchange were sloppy.
Orders in agriculture are typically made this way, and they do have the legal force of a binding contract, even though they are normally verbal agreements. Tech people discussing ag law are way over their skis.
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I don't think people are disputing that an informal contract is binding. If that's the norm in this context then fine. I think there is some dissention if thumbs up means "I agree to accept the terms stipulated in the contract in the message" or "thanks, I'll review later and get back to you".
I think the fact that there is so much dissent indicates the judge made a bad call. Even in an informal setting, deriving anything other than vague positive sentiment from a thumbs up emoji is going too far.
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by CodeInspired ( 896780 ) on Thursday July 06, 2023 @06:20PM (#63663240)
It's only binding in Canada if he included the "eh" after the thumbs up.-
Is there a "Molson's" emoji?
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yes, it's the puke one
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I've long postulated that emoji will become an internationally recognized language in its own right, what Esperanto tried Emoji will succeed at.
My prediction is some day you will walk through an airport or hotel and see instructions written in emoji.
Seems silly to us but kids being born right now will probably have as much fluency in the subtle meanings of emoji as they do in any major spoken language.
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Isn't a thumbs up a widely recognised gesture to indicate hitchhiking? Maybe he was trying to tell him to take a hike?
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Only in the context that you are currently on the side of the road and continuously holding it out, which is clearly not applicable here.
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Thumb pointed in the direction you wish to go is the hitchhiking signal, unless you are waiting for a helicopter.
Context does matter though, if I see someone one the side of a road with a thumb up I would guess that he/she was looking for a ride, but it could also mean they like my car/bike.
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SO he claims he used it to say he received the contract. But did he follow up on the contract at all? Did he respond later saying he had issues with the contract or did not agree with the terms? If not, the assumption that the thumbs up meant he accepted the contract seems absolutely reasonable. If there was further conversation about the contract, I would agree with the farmer. But if no further conversation happened, sorry, you agreed to it.
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What if instead of thumbs up he replied with "I'll review and get back to you later"? What if he never followed up then? If the initial response could be interpreted either way, then so can the lack of follow up.
It's equally probable that the thumbs up just meant "thanks" and then he forgot about it or ghosted the buyer.
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Probably nobody will see this, but the fact that this is an agricultural contract is extremely relevant to this decision.
In agriculture there is a long history of using verbal contracts and a host of laws and legal precedent in place to support the use of such. It is not at all wise to extrapolate any decision made here onto normal contract law. I would consider this decision an expected outcome, and I believe the same conclusion would have been reached in the US system.
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All the grain contracts I've ever done and dealt with involved either a real signature (scanned and e-mailed, or in person), or a special website that I have to log into (to prove some semblance of authority to sign) and make a definitive action that indicates I am accepting the contract. So how this grain buyer could create a contract without that kind of signature is a puzzlement to me. Although apparently this was done in the past. Not an outfit I'd like to deal with that's for sure.
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The issue is that the thumbs up indicator had previously been used to indicate agreement of the contract. Even if it was the poop emoji that had been used as an indicator before, it doesn’t matter. Hopefully other idiot judges dont use the headline as precedent though.
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Hindsight is always 20/20 of course.
But there are a number of things a farmer can do to mitigate things. Nearly all agricultural contracts have a clause to allow the farmer to buy out the contract. It's very common to forward sell production and when come up short due to weather and other factors. Usually it involves a modest fee, plus the difference in the price if the market moved against the farmer.
On several occasions I've had to buy out a load or two when I came up short compared to my projections. Sometimes if the price was good I can get a neighbor to cover a load, which they are often glad to do in that situation. And the earlier the shortage is discovered, the easier it is to buy out or find replacement.
And sometimes there is a short grace period after a contract is signed. Most buyers I've dealt with will try hard to get the contract voided if I needed to get out and it's only been a few hours. But once the contract goes up the line and the futures hedges are purchased, then you're locked in, except for the buy out clause.
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Worked with Mexican electronics manufacturer. Would call and ask questions. Can you do this by such and such a date? Do you have these parts in stock? etc. They always answered yes. Turns out yes = uh huh I hear you. The reality was quite different. I learned the answer also depends on the culture and the context.
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I would have argued that its too east to butt-dial an answer.
My son sent a "happy fathers day" text to which I accidentally replied "you too". He sent back a "wait, what" before I realized what was wrong.
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If they’re talking about a “tapback” or “reaction” thumbs up emoji (as opposed to a standalone message that is comprised entirely of a thumbs up emoji), I’d argue that the overwhelming use is simply as an ACK that the message was received and that the recipient has accepted the onus for an obvious next step. Doesn’t mean a contract was signed, nor does prior completion of contracts after a thumbs up mean that those previous ones were anything more than ACKs either.
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This is the wrong judgement.
A single emoji is not clear enough to establish intent to sign a contract.
Without the due diligence expected from the other party to confirm that this one character response did indeed indicate acceptance of the contract, I don't believe intent to sign is established. I would say that lack of the due diligence of the other party means the contract was never agreed to by both parties.
Even if it meant agreement with the contract, it is not a substitute for a formal contract and ac
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Once you start down the path of holding implicit agreement equivalent to explicit agreement, that road leads to "She was asking for it with that dress." Companies would just start saying you owe them money because at no point did you send them a notarized letter in triplicate expressing your rejection of their offer in five languages and countersigned by a judge.
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