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Incident: France B773 at Paris on Apr 5th 2022, airplane did not respond to comm...
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France B773 at Paris on Apr 5th 2022, airplane did not respond to commands
The Aviation Herald Last Update: Friday, Apr 8th 2022 19:58Z27831 Articles availableEvents from Mar 23rd 1994 to Apr 7th 2022 www.avherald.comIncidents and News in Aviation
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Incident: France B773 at Paris on Apr 5th 2022, airplane did not respond to commands
By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Apr 5th 2022 19:02Z, last updated Wednesday, Apr 6th 2022 11:16ZAn Air France Boeing 777-300, registration F-GSQJ performing flight AF-11 from New York JFK,NY (USA) to Paris Charles de Gaulle (France), was on final approach to Paris' runway 26L established on localizer and cleared to land descending through about 1500 feet when the crew was heard on tower frequency audibly in distress, alarm sounds in the background, one of the pilots calling "Stop! Stop!", "Stop it!", tower instructed the crew to stop the approach at 1500 feet. When the aircraft descended through 1200 feet significantly having veered to the left off the localizer the autopilot disconnect wailer can finally be heard on the radio transmission, the crew manages to go around from about 1150 feet. While climbing out and levelling off at 4000 feet the crew reported they had problems with the aircraft not following commands, the aircraft did not follow the commands. The crew requested runway 27R under radar vectoring, positioned for an approach to 27R and landed without further incident.
The aircraft is still on the ground in Paris about 10.5 hours after landing.
According to ADS-B data transmitted by the aircraft was at 1725 feet MSL about 4.17nm before the runway threshold (glideslope at 1768 feet MSL). The aircraft subsequently began to deviate to the left.
On Apr 6th 2022 the French BEA reported they rated the occurrence a serious incident and opened an investigation. The aircraft suffered a "flight control instability", control stiffness and trajectory oscillations. CVR and FDR data have been downloaded on Apr 5th 2022 and are being analysed.
Metars:
LFPG 050900Z 23010KT 2500 -DZ BR BKN003 09/09 Q1013 BECMG 6000 BKN005=
LFPG 050830Z 23010KT 2300 -DZ BR FEW002 BKN003 09/09 Q1013 TEMPO BKN002=
LFPG 050800Z 24008KT 3000 BR BKN003 09/08 Q1013 TEMPO BKN002=
LFPG 050730Z 23009KT 3000 -RA BR BKN003 09/08 Q1013 TEMPO BKN002=
LFPG 050700Z 23008KT 3000 -RA BR BKN003 08/08 Q1013 TEMPO BKN002=
LFPG 050630Z 23009KT 2500 -DZRA BR BKN003 08/08 Q1013 TEMPO BKN002=
LFPG 050600Z 23009KT 2500 BR BKN003 08/08 Q1013 TEMPO BKN002=
LFPG 050530Z 23010KT 2700 -DZ BKN003 08/07 Q1013 TEMPO BKN002=
LFPG 050500Z 24010KT 4000 -DZ BKN003 08/07 Q1013 NOSIG=
COR LFPG 050430Z 24009KT 4000 -DZ BR BKN004 08/07 Q1013 TEMPO FM0600 2000 BKN002=
COR LFPG 050400Z 23010KT 4000 -DZ BKN004 08/07 Q1013 TEMPO 2000 DZ=
Map (Graphics: AVH/Google Earth):
Reader Comments: (the comments posted below do not reflect the view of The Aviation Herald but represent the view of the various posters)
Dubai-Paris 777 also did go-around at CDG a few hours earlier
By Air France Traveler on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 22:01Z
By Air France Traveler on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 22:01Z
After reading that the AF11 QAR data seems to indicate there was nothing wrong with the plane, I want to repeat what I wrote here a couple of days ago in hopes that some of the experts on this forum will weigh in.
I was on another Air France 777 landing around 6am also on 5th April 2022 (DXB-CDG) (F-GSQK). I was watching the plane’s camera approach on the in-seat screen, and it seemed to me that the plane had veered significantly to the left of the runway. Just like AF11 was reported to do a few hours later.
At a very low altitude, in the last minute of flight, the pilot of my flight, AF655, pulled up for a go-around.
Could the two incidents be related? Both were 777s on the same day; both planes seem to be outfitted with the same kit and configuration.
My theory is that these two incidents a few hours apart were not coincidental; just that my pilots on AF655 handled it better than the pilots on AF11 did, and that the cause was a malfunction on the ground (CDG) rather than on the airplanes.
Thoughts?
I was on another Air France 777 landing around 6am also on 5th April 2022 (DXB-CDG) (F-GSQK). I was watching the plane’s camera approach on the in-seat screen, and it seemed to me that the plane had veered significantly to the left of the runway. Just like AF11 was reported to do a few hours later.
At a very low altitude, in the last minute of flight, the pilot of my flight, AF655, pulled up for a go-around.
Could the two incidents be related? Both were 777s on the same day; both planes seem to be outfitted with the same kit and configuration.
My theory is that these two incidents a few hours apart were not coincidental; just that my pilots on AF655 handled it better than the pilots on AF11 did, and that the cause was a malfunction on the ground (CDG) rather than on the airplanes.
Thoughts?
This
By Booga on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 21:59Z
By Booga on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 21:59Z
This is wonderful
By Jan on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 21:00Z
Folks, "n'ai pas répondu à commandes" in French means "(it) didn't react to controls/control inputs", not "commands".
Steering of a vehicle or flight controls in French are "commandes", specifically for an aircraft - "commandes de vol" (literally "flight commands").
Even the French don't command their planes around by yelling at them :)
Steering of a vehicle or flight controls in French are "commandes", specifically for an aircraft - "commandes de vol" (literally "flight commands").
Even the French don't command their planes around by yelling at them :)
@Henri
By AF on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 19:24Z
By AF on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 19:24Z
When you fly manual or with auto pilot, and hit the A/P disconnect push button you get an alarm of disconnection.
There is something not right with the culture inside the airline. Incidents due to lack of something.
Early this year an AF A350 took off with only one engine (then aboarted T/O thanks god) as the crew forgot to switch ON the other engine …
And I don’t even talk about the Toulon approach with an A318 …
There is something not right with the culture inside the airline. Incidents due to lack of something.
Early this year an AF A350 took off with only one engine (then aboarted T/O thanks god) as the crew forgot to switch ON the other engine …
And I don’t even talk about the Toulon approach with an A318 …
I wonder who is the clown
By JETMAN on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 18:50Z
By JETMAN on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 18:50Z
The one who makes conclusion without any data....
Bashing generally comes from uneducated frustrated mind that hopefully for this industry, might not pass the cockpit door.
Behind a keeboard you can pretend to be whatever you want, but what you write just reveal who you really are...
In this case, a frustrated clown...and we have the data to say it!!!
Bashing generally comes from uneducated frustrated mind that hopefully for this industry, might not pass the cockpit door.
Behind a keeboard you can pretend to be whatever you want, but what you write just reveal who you really are...
In this case, a frustrated clown...and we have the data to say it!!!
Clown ?
By Bayard on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:39Z
By Bayard on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:39Z
@737 captain
I wonder who is the clown !
I wonder who is the clown !
By Henri on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:34Z
To AF: How could there be an AP disconnect alarm if the FO was flying the aircraft manually?
To all: what French press exactly said is that according to the first QAR data provided by Boeing, there has been no issue with the flight controls.
The BEA replied that an investigation is ongoing, that both CVR & FDR have been read out and that no speculation about the cause of the incident should be made.
I’m well aware that AF bashing it has become a fashion all over the world since flight 447 crash but come on guys, be clever.
To all: what French press exactly said is that according to the first QAR data provided by Boeing, there has been no issue with the flight controls.
The BEA replied that an investigation is ongoing, that both CVR & FDR have been read out and that no speculation about the cause of the incident should be made.
I’m well aware that AF bashing it has become a fashion all over the world since flight 447 crash but come on guys, be clever.
By Henri on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:32Z
@AF: How could there be an AP disconnect alarm if the FO was flying the aircraft what French press exactly said is that according to the first QAR data provided by Boeing, there has been no issue with the flight controls.
The BEA replied that an investigation is ongoing, that both CVR & FDR have been read out and that no speculation about the cause of the incident should be made.
I’m well aware that AF bashing it has become a fashion all over the world since flight 447 crash but come on guys, be clever.
The BEA replied that an investigation is ongoing, that both CVR & FDR have been read out and that no speculation about the cause of the incident should be made.
I’m well aware that AF bashing it has become a fashion all over the world since flight 447 crash but come on guys, be clever.
By Henri on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:29Z
@AF: How could there be an AP disconnect alarm if the FO was flying the aircraft what French press exactly said is that according to the first QAR data provided by Boeing, there has been no issue with the flight controls.
The BEA replied that an investigation is ongoing, that both CVR & FDR have been read out and that no speculation about the cause of the incident should be made.
I’m well aware that AF bashing has become a worldwide fashion since flight 447 crash but come on guys, be clever.
The BEA replied that an investigation is ongoing, that both CVR & FDR have been read out and that no speculation about the cause of the incident should be made.
I’m well aware that AF bashing has become a worldwide fashion since flight 447 crash but come on guys, be clever.
It's the crew! redux
By (anonymous) on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:23Z
By (anonymous) on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:23Z
Seeing that consensus is growing around crew error, can we assess one question that's being ignored? I mean, sure, the crew were flying the plane. But should we not consider other options just in case?
I.e., could the following non-crew situation explain it? The autopilot system has an air-speed data related malfunction/miscalculation. The programming of autopilot cannot cope with the conditions and its programmed assumptions cause the plane to drift, some transmissions to stop. If the data loss is a programming error (aka not random), we need to assume the entire system is malfunctioning. That's why that question is so key.
A simple fact to keep in mind is that pitots are not perfect. So baro changes and speed changes etc are subject to confusion in the computational algorithms. It's a very delicate physical measurement as well and at critical times could trigger algorithmic error.
I.e., could the following non-crew situation explain it? The autopilot system has an air-speed data related malfunction/miscalculation. The programming of autopilot cannot cope with the conditions and its programmed assumptions cause the plane to drift, some transmissions to stop. If the data loss is a programming error (aka not random), we need to assume the entire system is malfunctioning. That's why that question is so key.
A simple fact to keep in mind is that pitots are not perfect. So baro changes and speed changes etc are subject to confusion in the computational algorithms. It's a very delicate physical measurement as well and at critical times could trigger algorithmic error.
the news
By Skydriver on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:17Z
By Skydriver on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 17:17Z
@737 captain
"read the news"...
This would be the very very first time we could rely on "the news" to get clear and asserted expert words from such an event.
I would rather quote "never trust the news", they can raise good questions, they barely offer correct answers.
"read the news"...
This would be the very very first time we could rely on "the news" to get clear and asserted expert words from such an event.
I would rather quote "never trust the news", they can raise good questions, they barely offer correct answers.
By AF on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 16:32Z
Guys,
FO PF, Manual flying with FD. G/A went wrong.
The alarms you hear in the video are :
Config Alarm due to gear up at Flaps 30
A/P disconnect alarm, as button was pressed
BEA and AF are figuring out if there was a problem with the A/C but for the moment looks not.
FO PF, Manual flying with FD. G/A went wrong.
The alarms you hear in the video are :
Config Alarm due to gear up at Flaps 30
A/P disconnect alarm, as button was pressed
BEA and AF are figuring out if there was a problem with the A/C but for the moment looks not.
French pilots again
By 737 captain on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 15:31Z
By 737 captain on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 15:31Z
Read the news....pilots didn't disconnect the automatics...ooh the aircraft is not responding!!!! How embarrassing could be nowadays be an AF pilots...clowns!
ILS or crew?
By (anonymous) on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 14:44Z
By (anonymous) on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 14:44Z
When this event first happened, there was tons of buzz about potential ILS interference. Someone posted in the rumor mill a set of graphs showing that air speed was lost in the transmissions for ADS and other packets too. Also we got an air speed related warning (maybe).
I tried to explain that if just a set of specific packets are lost that cannot be due to random interference. And Boeing folk got their feathers ruffled -- so it's possible they think that's a cause.
Still, to be clear if the data packets missing in transmissions are specific and interwoven with packets that are not 'missing', that is not a random event. It's a programming issue of some form. If there are just groups of missing data and some of it keeps being important that would be likely interference.
It's a Boeing policy to blame crew first. But I'm surprised to see how many crew members do the same ...
I tried to explain that if just a set of specific packets are lost that cannot be due to random interference. And Boeing folk got their feathers ruffled -- so it's possible they think that's a cause.
Still, to be clear if the data packets missing in transmissions are specific and interwoven with packets that are not 'missing', that is not a random event. It's a programming issue of some form. If there are just groups of missing data and some of it keeps being important that would be likely interference.
It's a Boeing policy to blame crew first. But I'm surprised to see how many crew members do the same ...
@777
By 777aviator on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 10:32Z
By 777aviator on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 10:32Z
Good points. The configuration warning siren would also sound if they forgot to extend the gear (or gear still in transit) and selected flaps 25/30 during configuration for landing. So could be both, troubles during normal configuration for landing or during go-around. But all our statements don’t explain the obviously hard physical workload on the flight deck. So let‘s wait for the investigation results.
AF
By JETMAN on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 08:23Z
By JETMAN on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 08:23Z
Stop the fake news or provide your source with clear statement.
Latest from some French newspapers is QAR review did not reveal any obvious A/C system or mechanical mal/disfunction.
Recorder Analysis still in progress and hopefully investigators will explain the scenario, too early to point fingers.
Latest from some French newspapers is QAR review did not reveal any obvious A/C system or mechanical mal/disfunction.
Recorder Analysis still in progress and hopefully investigators will explain the scenario, too early to point fingers.
@777 aviator
By 777 on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 07:48Z
By 777 on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 07:48Z
Very good explanation compared to the others non sense posts
If I may add some observations from the little elements we have about the alarms heard.
1- Autopilot disc wailer
2- Mater warning config siren is due to the selection of the gear up before the flaps during the GA, basically out of sequence, not overspeed by ref to flaps load relief.
Root cause most probably LLZ interference leading to signal scalloping followed by rushed manual go around.
Pending BEA conclusions.
If I may add some observations from the little elements we have about the alarms heard.
1- Autopilot disc wailer
2- Mater warning config siren is due to the selection of the gear up before the flaps during the GA, basically out of sequence, not overspeed by ref to flaps load relief.
Root cause most probably LLZ interference leading to signal scalloping followed by rushed manual go around.
Pending BEA conclusions.
By AF on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 06:00Z
According to French press, pilots are in cause. They were flying manual and didn’t sequence well the G/A leading to this. More info will come soon
correction
By mike on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 02:13Z
By mike on Friday, Apr 8th 2022 02:13Z
Just a correction to the story.
Listened to audio . Its clear that tower was calling the departing traffic AirFrance73HW to stop their climb at 1500ft, not for AirFrance011 (incident aircraft) to stop decent.
The AirFrance011 was in the go-around leaving about 2800ft at the time, to ensure separation.
Listened to audio . Its clear that tower was calling the departing traffic AirFrance73HW to stop their climb at 1500ft, not for AirFrance011 (incident aircraft) to stop decent.
The AirFrance011 was in the go-around leaving about 2800ft at the time, to ensure separation.
spurious comments
By (anonymous) on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 23:57Z
By (anonymous) on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 23:57Z
It's clear that Boeing people still want to confuse the topic. It's telling that they do so whenever evidence of their poorly designed systems comes to light.
I guess we're getting closer
I guess we're getting closer
Siren and low speed
By 777aviator on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 23:55Z
By 777aviator on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 23:55Z
What happened: I don’t know, but to clarify two things:
The siren, which could be heard at the beginning of the recording, will sound for various reasons: inflight the only ones that „make sense“ would be for a CONFIG SPOILERS (speedbrakes extended with climb thrust) or an OVERSPEED warning.
The problem with the A/T changing to HOLD and NOT waking up is solved by Boeing (after 9 years…). The 777 now has an A/T wake-up function in EVERY mode possible.
The siren, which could be heard at the beginning of the recording, will sound for various reasons: inflight the only ones that „make sense“ would be for a CONFIG SPOILERS (speedbrakes extended with climb thrust) or an OVERSPEED warning.
The problem with the A/T changing to HOLD and NOT waking up is solved by Boeing (after 9 years…). The 777 now has an A/T wake-up function in EVERY mode possible.
@Retired
By Brutus on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 21:26Z
By Brutus on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 21:26Z
That the Boeing bulletin talks about unexpected pitch behaviour is correct.
It is also correct that per 777 FCOM “Below 1,500 feet radio altitude, the flare and rollout modes are armed. The autoland status annunciation should display LAND 3 or LAND 2.” and that “The approach mode deselects:..by pushing APP when above 1,500 feet radio altitude”.
As the crew appears to have been below 1500 ft radio altitude, the usual way of deselecting the APP mode (again) would no longer work and I have seen enough perplexed crews in the sim when they were told below 1500 ft rad alt to level off on an ILS and maintain altitude.
Lateral tracking (after AP disconnect) was often one of the early victims when they tried to sort out the situation.
It is also correct that per 777 FCOM “Below 1,500 feet radio altitude, the flare and rollout modes are armed. The autoland status annunciation should display LAND 3 or LAND 2.” and that “The approach mode deselects:..by pushing APP when above 1,500 feet radio altitude”.
As the crew appears to have been below 1500 ft radio altitude, the usual way of deselecting the APP mode (again) would no longer work and I have seen enough perplexed crews in the sim when they were told below 1500 ft rad alt to level off on an ILS and maintain altitude.
Lateral tracking (after AP disconnect) was often one of the early victims when they tried to sort out the situation.
re: data transmissions
By (anonymous) on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 20:10Z
By (anonymous) on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 20:10Z
For writing nonsense I recommend sites for text generation, type one sentence and let the ai fill in the rest. No need to type all the nonsense yourself:
Input: The airplane was suffering from a stall.
Output: The airplane was suffering from a stall. He told the airman to try to get into an "aerodynamically-restricted area if possible to avoid this particular aerodynamic drag (FRAG)." Then the plane lost control and came back to Earth. But no-one was there to rescue it and the plane was taken to Cape Canaveral where it remained for two more days.
Input: The airplane was suffering from a stall.
Output: The airplane was suffering from a stall. He told the airman to try to get into an "aerodynamically-restricted area if possible to avoid this particular aerodynamic drag (FRAG)." Then the plane lost control and came back to Earth. But no-one was there to rescue it and the plane was taken to Cape Canaveral where it remained for two more days.
data transmissions
By (anonymous) on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 16:03Z
By (anonymous) on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 16:03Z
With all the talk about packet drop-outs on the receiver end, we should recognize that transmitting computers also have packet-related errors.
If it's the transmitter and not a random interference issue, you'd expect non-random looking losses. If it's a receiver experiencing interference, the packet loss cannot be periodic or timed in some specific way; that's statistically impossible.
From the data online about the 777 incident, the air speed packet is dropped at 48 second intervals. This is not a random error. It's either the aircraft did not send it or the data routing on the other end lost it due to a programming error. Either way, something that specific is a programming error and not interference related.
If it's the transmitter and not a random interference issue, you'd expect non-random looking losses. If it's a receiver experiencing interference, the packet loss cannot be periodic or timed in some specific way; that's statistically impossible.
From the data online about the 777 incident, the air speed packet is dropped at 48 second intervals. This is not a random error. It's either the aircraft did not send it or the data routing on the other end lost it due to a programming error. Either way, something that specific is a programming error and not interference related.
Another Asiana 214 event?
By Flyingjarjar on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 12:34Z
By Flyingjarjar on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 12:34Z
Not blaming the crew here as I cannot give any lesson on what should have been done in the comfort of my chair with a glass of wine in my hand.
I wonder if it just can be another event with the Autothrottle ON and FLCH mode selected (which would put ATHR in HOLD).
If the crew did not pay attention to the speed (fatigue, relying too much on ATHR) there's a high chance they stalled the aircraft.
IMHO, Boeing should make an effort and change this behavior which is not helping the crews.
I wonder if it just can be another event with the Autothrottle ON and FLCH mode selected (which would put ATHR in HOLD).
If the crew did not pay attention to the speed (fatigue, relying too much on ATHR) there's a high chance they stalled the aircraft.
IMHO, Boeing should make an effort and change this behavior which is not helping the crews.
Air France Crew
By Michael on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 11:04Z
By Michael on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 11:04Z
IMO this sounds like another AF Crew not able to handle their aircraft and than trying to blame it to be the plane which "behaved wrong".
Kasten Drew
By Jonny on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 09:33Z
By Jonny on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 09:33Z
People like you should be billed for wasting server space and peoples time.
I doubt 5G would play a part.
By Costew on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 08:49Z
By Costew on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 08:49Z
In Europe, 5G doesn’t utilise the millimetre wave bands, yet.
A trial with 5G masts around BGO (Flesland, Norway) and near to its ILS equipment a while back, resulted in absolutely no incidents at all, so I’m pretty sure we can rule out 5G.
A trial with 5G masts around BGO (Flesland, Norway) and near to its ILS equipment a while back, resulted in absolutely no incidents at all, so I’m pretty sure we can rule out 5G.
Control Issues During Approach
By Kasten Drew on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 07:59Z
By Kasten Drew on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 07:59Z
I was thinking about this incident when I went to McDonald’s to consume a coffee and a McMuffin for my calorie-laden breakfast. As I bit into my McMuffin I thought about the flow of discussion from one post to the next in this thread. I was struck by the fact that the discussion was very, very analogous to the fried egg in my McMuffin.
Eyechip
By JETMAN on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 06:45Z
By JETMAN on Thursday, Apr 7th 2022 06:45Z
If you cannot correctly read a name how can you correctly understand a situation...
Listening how "stop stop" is called, it seems more a warning call under stress facing a heavy loaded situation, loss of control in final, than panic as they correctly recovered and safely landed.
Also, BEA has caracterized this incident as "incident grave, serious incident" which means for the professional they were close to a crash.
Last, some already naively explained a situation as being auto pilot, and just take over the stick, without understanding or simply knowing this is a FBW aircraft and there might be other technical explanations.
BEA will sort it out very shortly and do not hesitate to ask questions if you panic trying to read and understand the report.
Listening how "stop stop" is called, it seems more a warning call under stress facing a heavy loaded situation, loss of control in final, than panic as they correctly recovered and safely landed.
Also, BEA has caracterized this incident as "incident grave, serious incident" which means for the professional they were close to a crash.
Last, some already naively explained a situation as being auto pilot, and just take over the stick, without understanding or simply knowing this is a FBW aircraft and there might be other technical explanations.
BEA will sort it out very shortly and do not hesitate to ask questions if you panic trying to read and understand the report.
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