PCIe 5.0 to feature fans alongside heatsinks, next-gen M.2 connectors also in wo...

No thanks. These smaller fans (chipset fans and all small formfactor fans) have a couple of things in common: They break all the time. They make a lot of noise. And they tend to start rattling after a very short time. We went away from these garbage small fans for a reason. I do not want to see them coming back at all.

On 26/03/2022 at 11:32 PM, Neonix1 said:

No thanks. These smaller fans (chipset fans and all small formfactor fans) have a couple of things in common: They break all the time. They make a lot of noise. And they tend to start rattling after a very short time. We went away from these garbage small fans for a reason. I do not want to see them coming back at all.

Wonder how else could it work in laptops!

On 26/03/2022 at 11:32 PM, Neonix1 said:

No thanks. These smaller fans (chipset fans and all small formfactor fans) have a couple of things in common: They break all the time. They make a lot of noise. And they tend to start rattling after a very short time. We went away from these garbage small fans for a reason. I do not want to see them coming back at all.

You're right, but at the same time wrong. More speed brings more heat and with PCI-Express 5 and 6, more heat is definitely coming, so what other choice engineers have if not a giant, ugly heatsink if we don't want fans?

Passive cooling won't cut it in the future. I prefer having a fan than to be exposed to data loss and fast hardware degradation.

On 27/03/2022 at 12:07 AM, leonsk29 said:

You're right, but at the same time wrong. More speed brings more heat and with PCI-Express 5 and 6, more heat is definitely coming, so what other choice engineers have if not a giant, ugly heatsink if we don't want fans?

Passive cooling won't cut it in the future. I prefer having a fan than to be exposed to data loss and fast hardware degradation.

Power management needs to keep up then. Right now Windows only slows down the CPU. GPUs have their own proprietary solution in their firmware to slow down which has no interaction with the OS. What we need is a new power management standard to slow down pci express in mobile or low battery loads to reduce heat that integrate with the OS. Really ugly fans which can't be replaced and heat spreaders should only be on servers and high end desktops

On 26/03/2022 at 11:32 PM, Neonix1 said:

No thanks. These smaller fans (chipset fans and all small formfactor fans) have a couple of things in common: They break all the time. They make a lot of noise. And they tend to start rattling after a very short time. We went away from these garbage small fans for a reason. I do not want to see them coming back at all.

Fan quality is just fan quality. There are good high quality small fans.

Unless the specs ramp up considerably, it still looks like most passive solutions with designed air flow will be fine for a while.

Chipset and VRMs are similar - where active cooling was more to prevent bad system designs - especially water cooling setups with no air flow over the mainboard (VRM/Chipsets).

However, if fans are needed, it will be fine. I remember the 90s when CPU fans started to be necessary with a lot of push back because it added moving parts that could fail.

On 27/03/2022 at 12:33 AM, sinetheo said:

Power management needs to keep up then. Right now Windows only slows down the CPU. GPUs have their own proprietary solution in their firmware to slow down which has no interaction with the OS. What we need is a new power management standard to slow down pci express in mobile or low battery loads to reduce heat that integrate with the OS. Really ugly fans which can't be replaced and heat spreaders should only be on servers and high end desktops

Windows also "slows down" hard drives, USB devices, wireless adapters, PCI-Express links and a couple other things, it isn't just the CPU, and also taking in consideration things like power source and system usage, so everything you said is already being done, with more or less optimization.

On 27/03/2022 at 12:33 AM, sinetheo said:

Power management needs to keep up then. Right now Windows only slows down the CPU. GPUs have their own proprietary solution in their firmware to slow down which has no interaction with the OS. What we need is a new power management standard to slow down pci express in mobile or low battery loads to reduce heat that integrate with the OS. Really ugly fans which can't be replaced and heat spreaders should only be on servers and high end desktops

If power managment is keeping this sufficiently cool to the point that a fan isn't required, you're running at a lower speed making the new PCIE standard redundant, might as well stick with PCIE gen 4

This is a first release thing, few gens down the line, fanless cooling will be sufficient again.

On 27/03/2022 at 12:07 AM, leonsk29 said:

You're right, but at the same time wrong. More speed brings more heat and with PCI-Express 5 and 6, more heat is definitely coming, so what other choice engineers have if not a giant, ugly heatsink if we don't want fans?

Passive cooling won't cut it in the future. I prefer having a fan than to be exposed to data loss and fast hardware degradation.

Well, yes and no. More performance and speed equals more heat as long as we are using the same process node and manufacturing techniques. With more efficient process nodes (7nm to 5nm for example), it is completely possible to increase performance AND increase efficiency. It's just that manufacturers doesn't focus on efficiency these days, cause I guess efficency doesn't sell. High performance does. So the manufacturers use the more efficient process nodes to push performance rather than increase efficiency. They could just as easily have increased efficiency. But chose not to do so.

Just take a look at Nvidia RTX 3080 and AMD 6800 XT in performance tests. They more or less perform about the same. The only difference is that the Nvidia card uses about 340w while the AMD card uses about 260w to achieve more or less the same type of performance. That is quite a significant difference in energy consumption. And it comes down to process nodes (AMD TSMC 7nm, Nvidia Samsung 8nm) and overall efficiency.

This is just getting out of hand. I resisted when the Pentiums first started requiring cooling fans. I eventually had to relent when it kept shutting down due to overheating. Graphics cards were next. I purposefully stayed on cards that only required passive cooling for as long as I could. And then eventually had to relent there also (for a short period). My current PC is an older Intel NUC that only uses passive cooling.

We should be demanding more efficient components. Having a gaming PC that puts off so much heat that you have to get a dedicated AC just for that room, is insane.

We should not ever let it get to the point that we have to have dedicated cooling for SSDs. If no one buys it, they will be forced to change.

On 27/03/2022 at 03:06 AM, RichardK said:

This is just getting out of hand. I resisted when the Pentiums first started requiring cooling fans. I eventually had to relent when it kept shutting down due to overheating. Graphics cards were next. I purposefully stayed on cards that only required passive cooling for as long as I could. And then eventually had to relent there also (for a short period). My current PC is an older Intel NUC that only uses passive cooling.

We should be demanding more efficient components. Having a gaming PC that puts off so much heat that you have to get a dedicated AC just for that room, is insane.

We should not ever let it get to the point that we have to have dedicated cooling for SSDs. If no one buys it, they will be forced to change.

I totally agree. cooling for SSD is a joke as things are already fast enough without it. they need to work on making things more efficient instead of that 'speed no matter what' kind of mindset. because while having fast stuff is nice, after a certain point it's not worth it if power consumption gets out of hand and you need additional cooling and reliability takes a solid hit etc.

hell, I am still on your typical SATA SSD and I am in no rush to get something faster simply because just going from a regular hard drive to a SATA SSD gave a big difference and I can't imagine ill see any performance gains significant enough to where I gotta have something faster. but with fans on a SSD etc... just seems like it's more likely to break as I want reliability first and foremost when it comes to general computer hardware. because speed etc means nothing without reliable components you can depend on for say at least 5-10 years+. but honestly, anything that's of decent quality should last 10+ years in most cases. I get some components are naturally a bit less reliable than others, like say a HDD is more likely to fail a lot sooner than say a CPU, but even here anything that does not give a bare minimum of 5+ years is just junk (although I realize even the best components you can get a bad one here and there, but generally speaking a high percentage of hard drives should last a bare minimum of 5+ years. but so far I have been fortunate with hard drives as only two failed on me which was 40GB and 80GB). but sadly, it seems many have adopted this 'disposable' mentality, like with smart phones where they get new one, say once every 1-3 years, when their previous one is still well more than good enough as a decent smart phone should easily last 3+ years minimum. so there is so much waste in regards to smart phones nowadays with people upgrading 24/7 for no real reason. but it seems that kind of mindset carries over to many other random things to.

More flipping fans, I am trying to get away from the noisy things, not add more.

The price of more and more speed. I suppose if you can keep reducing the power draw then you can keep it in check for a bit. At some point though you probably won't be able to go lower on the voltage.

It's really no different on the CPU side, we've been hovering around the 5Ghz clocks for years now and went with more cores as a way to boost performance while not having to raise speeds much.

It's going to be a balancing act.

No. Just don't. I refuse to.

less fans, more RGB... until every component has RGB we're not done... even the MOSFETs and VRMs need RGB on each chip!... and RGB resistors! and RGB caps!... and more RGB in motherboard trace lines!

I don't mind system noise as long as it stays cool, prefer air cooling for as long as i possibly can stick to Air cooling as less chance of major system damage if a AIO cooler should leak, no need to mess with an Air cooler besides dust clean outs, whereas an AIO can die, have to change every 4-6 years--which is a pain i feel.

Soon as i can afford it upgrading my Intel 10700 Stock Cooler shop used with a newer Air cooler--most likely Mugen 5 Black Edtion as videos i watched it appears to be the easiest to install for a total cooler install noob as i am, as never ever done a cooler upgrade, though confidence is getting up there more

*My Old Abit NF7-S did have a chipset fan that died back in 2005 for my old AMD Athlon XP 2500+ system, but that was mainly my fault for not following a 3 month dusting schedule like i should've been, now i know and i stick to that schedule alot

Eventually maybe i'll get brave and have my very first AIO cooler build, but for now definitely sticking with Air Cooling, as Gaming Desktop used 24 hours most days, and not sure on AIO Cooling if it could handle my usage pattern

On 27/03/2022 at 04:42 PM, bikeman25 said:

I don't mind system noise as long as it stays cool, prefer air cooling for as long as i possibly can stick to Air cooling as less chance of major system damage if a AIO cooler should leak, no need to mess with an Air cooler besides dust clean outs, whereas an AIO can die, have to change every 4-6 years--which is a pain i feel.

Soon as i can afford it upgrading my Intel 10700 Stock Cooler shop used with a newer Air cooler--most likely Mugen 5 Black Edtion as videos i watched it appears to be the easiest to install for a total cooler install noob as i am, as never ever done a cooler upgrade, though confidence is getting up there more

*My Old Abit NF7-S did have a chipset fan that died back in 2005 for my old AMD Athlon XP 2500+ system, but that was mainly my fault for not following a 3 month dusting schedule like i should've been, now i know and i stick to that schedule alot

Eventually maybe i'll get brave and have my very first AIO cooler build, but for now definitely sticking with Air Cooling, as Gaming Desktop used 24 hours most days, and not sure on AIO Cooling if it could handle my usage pattern

Yeah, naturally air cooling is a 'go to' cooling in general (I would never seriously consider anything else) as it's just simple, more reliable, and easier to maintain and has been around for a long time now as you just use a air compressor to blow the dust out of the PC from time-to-time (with computer off of course). so depending on how dusty ones place is and how many fans one is using, as a ball park, I blow the dust out mine out about twice a year, or at least once minimum. my current motherboard and PSU is the longest lasting ones I ever owned as my motherboard (ASUS) will be 10 years old this May (although onboard sound died I think in the year 2020 but I got a cheap USB sound card with a 3.5mm jack as a nice quick/cheap replacement and disabled onboard sound in BIOS) and my PSU (Seasonic) will be 10 years old in Nov and I leave my PC on pretty much all of the time.

hell, occasionally if it's been a while since I last blew the dust out of it (maybe once every 3-4 months)... ill just remove the side cover with the PC running and with my mouth blow into the CPU heatsink/fan area which tends to get a decent portion of the dust out of it (even then it's still not that bad, but you can see it) and my GPU (1050 Ti 4GB) I am not worried about either since it's not a hot running GPU as that would likely have to get really packed full of dust before it would become a concern and even then it would probably on matter if someone is doing a more demanding task on it like playing a game. or another way to put it... I would expect dust to become a issue on my CPU before it would on the GPU.

p.s. I don't mind system noise to a degree. but it still needs to be low enough not to have to noticeably raise (or at least not much) say TV volume to hear a movie etc.