New Australian Law Will Give Workers 'Right to Disconnect' - Slashdot

Posted by EditorDavid

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  If your company's culture is to expect universal availability, it's going to be hard to be the one who resists. You won't get promoted, and the probability that you survive the next round of lay offs is not high.

  Here's hoping my pessimism is unfounded, but, to me, without a wider range of protections, in many jurisdictions this is a merely inviting people to paint a target on their forehead.

  • 1 hidden comment

  • I've always made it clear that if you want me on call, then I'm expecting to get paid. On a friday night I'm out for beers, call me at that point, you can expect nonsense. And I make sure my bosses know that in advance. Its never given me dramas.

    Be assertive, its your life, nobody elses, and if the boss doesnt like it, well quit and find an employer that respects your time.

    • Re:

      you’Re clEArlY NoT A GooD tEAm PlAyeR!

      • Re:

        Yeah, this sounds like a badly drafted law. If they want it to actually stop people from getting overworked & their bosses infringing on their personal lives, it's daft to expect employees to actively reject calls from their bosses. Just do what they did in France & make it illegal for the boss to contact you in any way in the first place, no exceptions. If it's an emergency, they can call emergency services.

        • Re:

          I agree, but good luck getting that through a parliment thats dominated by a "left" and "right" party that basically espouse the same neo-liberal mining-first business ideology.

          Labor and LNP have the same bloody policies, but the LNP just say the quiet bits out loud.

          Its not that different to the Reagan era Republicans and Clinton era Democrats basically having the same set of policies but with a whole charade about one side being "liberal" and the other "conservative".

    • Re: Nice theory but...

      Just to clarify, they should pay you for every hour that you stay "on call". Not just a miserable flat rate for being on standby.

  • Re:

    Yep, all this means is that they can't write you up for this. Big whoop, they just find some other reason to write you up.

    • Re:

      If 99.9% of the employees do the same thing that's guaranteed by law there's little reason to write them up for it. It's like writing them up for arriving and leaving on time.

  • by Teun ( 17872 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:17AM (#64231716)

    That's the nice thing with having this policy set nation wide in law, there is no difference between one and the other employee.
    Sure, there will be bosses trying anyway and there will be a few people answering those calls.
    In our company we had regulations, when called and answered you would get payed overtime, some days and weekends I would tell them in advance I would be 'out of the house' and the phone switched off.

  • If your company's culture is to expect universal availability,

    ...it's time to dust off your resume and get out of there.

    You won't get promoted

    When was the last time you got promoted? Promotion from inside is a thing of the past, nobody gets promoted anymore. No company wants to open that can of worms anymore. Why Dick instead of Harry. Or worse, and a lawsuit in the making, why Dick instead of Harriette?

    the probability that you survive the next round of lay offs is not high.

    The probability of surviving the next round of lay offs is moot. Either you get fired or you get twice the workload into your back. Neither is a good outcome, so I don't give a fuck if you fire me or try to burn me out with twice the work, I'll be gone. Fired or quitted. And so should you.

  • Re:

    Reminds me of the "culture of working overtime without pay" in Japan's mickey-dee.

    They kept at it after it was banned by law, and a couple of large-profile lawsuits with big payouts made them reconsider.

    • Re:

      That's not at all what happened.

      The shift supervisor (who was titled manager) was not overtime allowed because they were in "management" but in reality they of course did work, so the course very much sided with the manager. It was not a thing Japan McDonald's wide but like a combination of factors at that one particular store. Shift supervisors get paid overtime and managers do not.

      Overtime has never seen to been a big deal in Japan at least for the last 24 years. I don't even have to have approval

  • Re:

    You won't get promoted, and the probability that you survive the next round of lay offs is not high.

    Already happening. Remote workers are already 35% more likely to be laid off [businessinsider.com] than people who come to the office and 31% more likely to not get promoted [forbes.com] than those who come to the office.

  • • Re:

      Does your pay reflect that?

      • 2 hidden comments

      • Re:

        IT worker - we get paid for that work at my company, it even qualifies for shift diff and overtime.

        Normal staff are actually scheduled to cover 24/7 though, so under normal circumstances they are not calling senior staff unless shit has really dropped (which happens maybe 1x a quarter.)

    • Re:

      No its not (or shouldn't) since they should have at least 2 people, and you should be rostered on or off. Its not to the benefit of the employee or the employer to have only one. If you are the only one that can deal with an issue, it is a huge risk to the company.

    • Re: Nice theory but...

      Perhaps if you're a site reliability engineer. Not a 9-5 dev, manager or otherwise non-critical entity.

    • Re:

      There is no such thing as a 24/7 job in Australian law. There are minimum required break times and maximum allowable work hours.

      You can tell me that managers will ignore that and rely on people not knowing better and you might be right... but in practice I've seen people try to assert in court that the business they were managing wasn't subject to this law due to operational necessities or whatever and in the process being told that they were risking contempt of court, ending up losing their positions and b

    • No, most IT is ***not*** 24/7

      IT 'needs' and IT manager 'wants' are different things. Unless you support highly available systems like those in hospitals, nuclear power, ATMs, etc., then IT is not a 24/7 process and its support is not a 24/7 role.

      Most organisations and businesses have a cadence where after hours or on weekends, the core business shuts down or slows. IT support requirements reflects that cadence.

  • Re:

    You're missing the biggest protection: the door. There are lots of jobs out there. Some will require being connected 24-7. Others will not. If you don't like, vote with your feet. In short order, the company will find it has to start offering more to get people to accept offers. Win-win! People will find themselves either getting higher compensation for the connected culture or at a job where they can clock out.

    Seriously though, this is just going to encourage companies to not hire in Oz. It's not like they

    • The job market is freezing over

      The vast numbers departing from Silicon Valley companies is making the door ever less attractive. So - yes in theory - but beware...

  • Re:

    No one likes or promotes a kiss-ass or suck up employee.

    If you want to get to the top, the only sure fire methods are to be related to the boss or fuck them if you're not.

    • 1 hidden comment

• Unless I'm on call and get paid for it, any call from work is unreasonable.

  You want my time, pay for it. You want me to be available, pay for it. You don't want to pay for it, fuck off.

  • Re:

    This is the only answer. And because it would take about 2 seconds for every employer everywhere to add 'on call' to every employee's job description... it has to be legislated very firmly.

    You contract with a company to do a job, usually with set hours. Outside of those hours, as far as the company is concerned you should not exist.

    If they need you beyond that it should be in the employment contract, and the time limits and premiums paid on having someone on call or to have them work outside their usual h

    • Re:

      I don't know Austrailian law, but in some places on-call time carries a minimum rate of pay in addition to work hours. Employers may violate that if they like, but if a local labor board determines they were constructively demanding on-call without pay, they may end up owing a lot of back pay and penalties.

      • Re:

        I can assure you that this definitely applies in Australia.

        In fact, I've been backpaid based on casual violations of it myself... and in my case I only even know about the violation due to my employer doing an internal audit and telling me.

  • Re: What do you mean with "unreasonable"?

    Like I already said in a other comment in this thread, they should pay you for every hour that you are required to be on standby. Not just a flat rate from the day like many companies do. If I can't leave home and do whatever I want with the day, you owe me for the entirety of that time.

• Unless you're a willing participant in the on-call roster, give them your land line number. Or the same toll free number for reckless truck drivers. 1-800 -EAT-somethingsomething like that.

  • Re:

    I would, but land-lines aren't available in all areas. And in many places where they are, telcos are setting prices exorbitantly high to coerce people to quit.

    I consider myself lucky to have relatively cheap... IP-telephony, at home, to a "classic" phone (as much as a cordless digital DECT phone is a "classic phone"). But in many areas, you can't even get wired broadband.

• Dodge the snakes, spiders, kangaroos, octopi, and whatever else is trying to kill you in Australia. Maybe it's safer to answer the work email.

  • Re:

    As an Aussie I can confirm that it is in fact possible to get caught out by a dangerous animal but you would probably have to be doing something stupid (or hit a very rare circumstance) for it to happen.

    I live in suburbia and the last time I saw a snake or kangaroo was at a zoo, the last time I saw an octopus was at a fishmonger and spiders aren't a problem if you leave them alone (or hit em with the bug spray:)
    Snakes can show up in suburbia but if you leave them alone you should be fine.

    The biggest pest a

    • Re:

      As a foreigner who visited Australia and was regaled of stories of all the nasty critters... I saw a koala at a koala sanctuary and some roos at the zoo.

      No dinner-plate-sized spiders in the gardens. No snakes. Didn't bump in to Paul Hogan. I also learned there are multiple Australian accents and none of them sounded like Croc Dundee.

      • Re:

        I was at the Billabong Sanctuary [billabongs...ary.com.au] in Townsville in Queensland in 2005. I was on line to 'hold a koala bear', figured my daughters would like the picture. I watched a woman about 5 people in front of me not hold the animal firmly and it clawed her pretty significantly. I still held the bear, it just felt insecure in her hands, but even those 'mundane' animals you refer to could easily gut you. Well, at least koalas.

        I saw some other idiot dressed like Steve Irwin on staff poking at a 14' croc with a stick,

        • Re:

          I did the 'hold a koala' thing. I was very careful, being fully aware those talons are razor sharp for climbing bark. Held the little fella as gently as I could, but I could still feel the points starting to dig in to my shoulder. Honestly, the tourist photo snap couldn't happen quickly enough but I survived.

          Nowadays I don't think I'd be up for that, leave the guys alone... they're not house cats. Besides, they all have chlamydia.

    • Re:

      but the dropbears will soon work out urban environments will suit them to a 't'

• • Re:

    This isn't so much the internet's fault but eh United States lacking a centralized clearinghouse for medical billing. Every provider has to contract with a 3rd party billing firm who then contracts with another billing firm who then has to contact the billing firm the insurance provider contracts with to negotiate payment and there is no common data format so it's a world of endless intake forms, every doctor and pharmacy needs you DOB and nobody has access to records until you have to go and get them for

    • Re:

      The lack of centralization was a feature, not a bug. At least originally. The HIPPA fears that got that thing passed. It's had mixed effects. Sure, my employer knows jack shit about my actual medical conditions, but as pointed out, the form filling burden and liability concerns are pretty huge.

      • Re:

        It was a feature but it doesn't work. Decentralization has costs and our wildly inefficient healthcare system is the price we pay. It's an ideological decision to make it operate this way, not a results or process based one.

        Your employer shouldn't be involved in your healthcare to begin with, that's another one of the huge inefficiencies we deal with. These are all pretty American problems as our system is a terrible hodgepodge of multiple providers, states, 3 different Federal medical systems and 50 di

        • Re:

          I don't disagree in general; I believed differently back then but i've gotten a little wiser over 30 years. That said, if you look at the health care system as a jobs program, you can see the clear incentive to not fix anything. This is one case where getting the government involved might *reduce* the number of people required to deliver a service. That's probably what has stopped the re-envisioning you are skirting around. Even the consolidation into larger practices caused by Obamacare resulted in a l

          • Re:

            It even fails as a jobs program though, the US has a pretty low ratio of doctor to population ratios, most countries with centralized systems do better on that front.

            What we do have is an overabundance of billing and admin costs just to manage the wildly inefficient system we work in but that's literally just made up busywork.

            Yeah agree the political will is not there but that is also imo strongly because of the dishonest framing Obamacare had to fight against for a good decade. It's not just peoples jobs,

• • Re: My nightmare after hours call

    You made a series of mistakes here, my friend:

    1. Never answer a call from work after hours.

    2. Never answer any calls from work at night.

    3. In fact, never answer ANY calls at night. Phone on silent. End of story.

    4. Signing your job contract with them.

• I get the distinct impression from the way the summary is phrased that the article has a heavy "Look how good they already have it, and they want MORE, the leeches!" slant, rather than "It's actually possible to have these things in life. Fight for it, damn it!"

• I work with people in France and it's common, but a hassle for them to literally have two phones - one for work and one for personal that they tote around all the time. The work phone gets switched off at the end of the work day. It seems like their company (big multinational) couldn't work out how to comply with the law without just giving them a separate item to turn off. They are very observant of it too!

  • Re:

    I have two phones. When the company wanted me on call, I asked them to supply a phone for that purpose. No crossing of personal and work for me. They don't get access in any way to my phone, and I don't do anything to theirs that isn't at their request.

    When I'm on call, the work phone stays on and the volume is up. If I'm not, it's scheduled to mute itself as soon as the work day ends and stay that way on a table until the next work day starts.

    I highly recommend it.

    • Re: Two phones

      A separate phone for work should be a golden standard, and not just for on call reasons. These days every single employer tries to con you into installing their software on your phone. Mail clients, authenticators, timesheets and what nots. The problem is that many, if not most, of those apps have very invasive permissions and some of them come with MDM which effectively gives your employer access and control to your personal data. This should never be allowed to happen. It's my device. If you require me to

      • Re:

        Realistically you could get away just enough power to run an MFA app and an email client. VOIP and/or IM would be a bonus. Data plan only unless you're fine restricting it to WiFi access. Doesn't need GPS or a camera or anything else.

        Essentially, you're talking about a glorified security token and pager and the only thing you'd be asking an employee to hand over would be a tiny little sliver of their Internet bandwidth.

  • Re:

    In the company I work for (in France), we have the choice between an 2nd, company-supplied phone, and a BYOD option.

    Most of the managers or people who tend to get more phone calls instead of mostly chat and e-mail messages choose the 2-phone option.
    It is nice to have the choice, though each option has its disadvantages and constraints.

    In any case, I do not feel the right to disconnect law here has been life-changing. People are a bit more careful to avoid messages after 8 Pm, but except for the few people w

• by olmsfam ( 1399493 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @12:07PM (#64232094)

  I will bet money they carve out an exclusion for IT. I'm not sure why but seems like there is always an exclusion in laws like these for IT people. We get paid less than doctors an lawyers yet expected to work all hours all day everyday. No wonder the burnout is real.

• • Re: Long service after seven years?

    Varies by territory. I live in the ACT where we are able to claim LSL after seven years but in many states I believe you need ten years of continuous service to qualify.

    • Re:

      Im pretty sure the 7 years is national, its in federal IR law

      • Re:

        No, at my university, it's 10 years for academic faculty.

      • Re:

        10 years in Tasmania. If you're made redundant after 7 you can get paid out pro rata. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
• This is aimed at lower level employees badgered by twit managers. Executives with high salaries + free cars + free stock + bonuses tied to fake sales numbers will still take phone calls.

• I believe these are quite standard in developed countries, US being an exception on that front.