India To Cut Daytime Power Tariffs, Raise Fees For Night Use - Slashdot
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India To Cut Daytime Power Tariffs, Raise Fees For Night Use
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India To Cut Daytime Power Tariffs, Raise Fees For Night Use (reuters.com) 58
Posted by msmash
on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:00PM from the how-about-that dept.India faced its worst electricity shortages in six years during the year ended March 2023, as searing heat and a surge in economic activity meant supply was not able to keep up with demand that grew at its fastest pace in 33 years. During so-called "solar hours", tariffs will be 10%-20% less than normal levels, while tariffs during peak night hours when air-conditioning use is cranked up after people come home from work will be 10-20% higher.
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Why the hell would I put a solar panel on my roof if the power is cheapest during the day? The cheaper daytime power is, the longer it takes to reach a ROI point.
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The price on the gross market is already variable. It can even go into the negatives when there is too much solar/wind.
What you are talking about is different: this is about you having a contract to resell your electricity to the grid at an agreed price, even if it doesn't make financial sense for the grid operator. This is what artificially makes your roof solar panel attractive, but it is not a given.
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If power is less expensive during the day, that's when it will get used - and the more true that is, the less you depend on non-renewables that tend to fail after sunset.
And if you can install a battery pack, you can have your small home solar keep the AC going through the night on power you collected during the day. The more expensive nighttime power is, the more sense the purchase of that battery system makes.
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>and the more true that is, the less you depend on non-renewables that tend to fail after sunset.
Correction:
"the less you depend on non-renewables because renewables
tend to fail after sunset."-
renewables tend to fail after sunset.
Solar doesn't work at night. But other than that I don't know what other renewables you are referring to. Most land-based wind resources are stronger at night, when electricity demands are lower. [energy.gov] Geothermal, hydro, tidal, biofuel, those all work at night too.
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Hydro is 24/7 indeed, but you need to have appropriate geography nearby. I'm not sure why they're claiming land-based wind is stronger at night, since generally surface wind speeds peak in the early afternoon and are waning by twilight as the surface cools relative to the air above it. Tidal power has yet to be widely deployed and my understanding is India's tidal power capacity is around 10GW. India uses something around 210 GW peak.
So realistically, you get wind (mostly) and solar (entirely) during the
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I'm not sure why they're claiming land-based wind is stronger at night, since generally surface wind speeds peak in the early afternoon and are waning by twilight as the surface cools relative to the air above it.
Indeed, wind seems to die down, or at least get less turbulent [google.com], after the sun sets. From what I recall wind typically is at a minimum just before dawn. Balloonists also seem to know this. [hudsonhotairaffair.com]
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The Washoe Zephyr in NW Nevada would reliably startup around 4 PM and go until midnight, but it would die off sometime after that.
So from say 2 AM to sunrise you would have nothing renewable.
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surface wind speeds peak in the early afternoon and are waning by twilight as the surface cools relative to the air above it.
That might be the case at YOUR place. But in general: completely wrong. Every coast e.g. has strong winds, particularly strong after sunrise and a few hours after sunset. Then the question is: are you in a general wind rich region, like trade winds. Or mountain regions, more precisely, regions which slope upward. Then you have river valleys, depending on time of the year, you might ha
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Demand shifting.
This is India, not Indiana. People don't put solar panels on roofs in a country which largely doesn't even have working sanitation. It may surprise you that one size doesn't fit all.
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Exactly the opposite. People have only weak incentive to put solar panels on roofs in a country that has reliable electric power, but people in countries with an unreliable electric grid have strong incentive to put solar panels on roofs.
Exactly.
https://www.npr.org/sections/g... [npr.org]
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I contend, contrary to your claim, that the vast, VAST majority of residential solar panels are being installed at locations previously served by reliable electric power. I concede that government meddling is likely the cause of that decision, when the govt subsidies the mfg, the training of the installers, subsidizes the price paid for the panels, and then forces local electric company to pay a fixed, premium rate for all the excess electricity you shove back on the power grid, whether or not the utility n
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I'm not sure that you have a good feel for India. It's a big country. Yes, there are millions of people who, in your words, "lack refrigerators, freezers, televisions, or home computers in their homes, beyond a few reading lights and a way to charge their cell phones," but there is also a large middle class, who have all these things... but still have to deal with an unreliable electric grid.
...but the point is where are the most panels being installed? Answer: first-world nations, not third-world world countries.
Depends on how you measure. The number one country for amount of solar capacity being installed per year-- ahead by a factor of three-- is China. Do you count China as a third-world country?
India installs about half as much solar power per year as the US does (50 MW, compared to 91 MW for the US in 2021). On the other hand, the US has seven times the GDP of India, so proportionately, we should be installing seven time as much solar power as India, not two.
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Do you count China as a third-world country?
Technically, China is a second-world country, aligned with the "East" (Those under the influence of the CCCP and the PRC). India is a third-world country, that is, non-aligned. The first-world countries are those countries aligned with the "West" (Western Europe and North America).
Though, with the fall of the Soviet Union and the lack of consistency in language usage, I'm fighting a losing battle trying to distinguish the terms developed, developing, and unde-
That is an American bullshit definition of 1st, 2nd and 3rd world, that never really was used in the rest of the world.
First world: highly industrialised countries. By coincident, many belonging to the "western block", but not all.
Second world: mostly agrarian developed, in the industrialisation phase. By coincident, many in the eastern block, but not all.
Third world: poorly developed countries, particularly infrastructure, by coincident a good deal not aligned to any block.
Fourth world: so poor that they a
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Answer: first-world nations, not third-world world countries.
Obviously. As there are no third world countries anymore.But I guess that was not your point. My point is: your idea might have been true 5 years, oe even 3 years ago. But right now? I doubt it. In many asian countries solar installations are booming.
(poor people tend to live in apartments, not stand alone homes with yards...
Depends what you call poor. And it obviously depends on country. I doubt in Thailand e.g. a poor person can afford an apartm
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This is absolutely is what many people want for North Americans as well. The power company will tell you when to use electricity. There will be increasing penalties for choosing on your own.
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That's a funny take since the price of everything else already depends on when and where you buy it.
It's like accusing the restaurant of telling you what to eat by charging more for steak than chicken. 'How dare you penalize me for preferring steak!!
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It's more like charging more for chicken for dinner than for breakfast, which is more defendable than if your grocer priced food by time of day.
You think it's a great idea for electricity, how about water? They will tell you when to shower or flush LOL (and this actually happens too, and nobody considers it a good thing).-
But they do say not to water your lawn in the afternoon, since it just evaporates, which is reasonable. Restaurants do have "early bird specials." Road tolls depend on time of day. Street parking is free in many downtowns outside business hours. There are lots of examples.
But I do think variable residential electricity pricing needs to be optional, and/or phased in to work correctly, because right now nothing is built around variable pricing. EV's and some major appliances have timers to charge at night w
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But they do say not to water your lawn in the afternoon, since it just evaporates, which is reasonable.
Lol, that is not reasonable. Obviously you water in the afternoon, depending what you call afternoon perhaps.
Road tolls and street parking have different prices depending on time of day not because of "supply and demand" but because of shaping the bahaviour of the users/customers. You simply do not want people to block the parking places all day long, you want many peple coming and going and do their busin
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It's more like charging more for chicken for dinner than for breakfast
This is, actually, what most non-fast food restaurants do. Lunches, even when served in the same portion sizes as dinners, are typically cheaper, often by as much as 50%.
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OMG no! The communist horrors!
Oh, wait, electricity in most places in North America is already priced by time of day, and sometimes by time of year.
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I don't know about most places, certainly not here. Net metering is intended for people who produce some power on their own, the rest of us just pay a flat rate. Commercial customers are another story of course.
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39 Million of us in California pay depending on time of day and time of year. We have different rates for winter and summer and we have different rates, referred to as on peak, off peak and super off peak. Been this way for years.
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Yes, and we all know how reliable your grid is. Would probably collapse if you did not do that, but that does not mean it is something everyone should emulate.
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Last year I religiously did my wash and dry after 9pm to take advantage of the lower rates. The EOY report on savings was less than $5.
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Your information is out of date. Most people in India have access to a toilet, close to 100% in fact.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
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Did you just look at the numbers on the link you provided or did you read it, too? From your link:
So having toilets in 97% of homes is literally equating to 60% of the population using them (2014 numbers).
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More recent data suggests that the vast majority do use toilets. Education works.
It was down to about 15% last time I looked, still too high but they are dealing with it. It's not an excuse to not also address other issues.
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Perhaps you should apply the same critics you applied to your parent, to your self?
Did you actually read what you quoted? Read it again... (* facepalm *)
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Having a toilet in the home does not mean that toilet flushes to a sanitary sewer that does not pollute rivers.
Arguing a Wikipedia fact with a Wikipedia fact:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Because you still save money, it just takes a longer.
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The cheaper daytime power is, the longer it takes to reach a ROI point.
That is a fallacy.
The ROI is the same time, regardless what the power costs.You buy it today. You calculate it on what you save if you buy it today. The ROI is only dependent on what you pay, and not on what the power actually costs.
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You, as a consumer in India, won't. India doesn't have as many big houses for the middle class that can be fit with PV panels. India has less consumer solar (panels on your roof) and more utility sized solar farms.
From TFS:
What is happening here is that the pricing will encourage moving some consumption to the daytime, when renewables (solar in particular) can supply it.
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Who do you expect to pay for the battery or fossil fuel plant you need to keep your power running at night?
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This is a good news, and is actually a good way to take advantage of solar. It's just a bit crazy to see India leading the way, and Western countries not doing that (as far as I know, for the countries I know about at least, feel free to correct me).
It is not as if this is the most innovative idea of the century either, it really makes so much sense it makes you wonder why it is not that way everywhere there is solar/wind involved. Price could be indexed for the consumer based on electricity scarcity (and n
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True but in India there is a government decision, affecting at least the public sector generation/distribution (private sector generation in India is 33%, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] ). The Indian government can coerce its public companies to set prices according to political goals, while in Western countries customers get the market price. There is some sort of electricity price control in some EU countries, but someone more knowledgable would have to compare that with the situation in I
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Western countries have government utility rate authorities, just like some other authorities. For example, in California, PG&E had recent rate increases denied by the utilities commission, and in the insurance industry, State Farm had their proposed insurance rate increases refused by the insurance board, so State Farm has decided to stop writing new policies in the state of California.
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In many poor countries, energy subsidies make it easier for poor folks to buy electricity or fuel. These are so popular that disrupting them triggers social unrest [cnn.com]. So, what's an authoritarian to do? Just ignore them and act like burning coal was great when the USA did it in the 1800's but now it's not because brown people in underdeveloped places wanna do it (SPOILER: Yep) ? There is a distinct Malthusian flavor to all this. Rather than focus on technical solutions to enable everyone to get a slice of the
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I suggested the same idea to my City Council member in Los Angeles 2 years ago. Of course, it went nowhere as I didn't have any bribes prepared.
Bravo, India.
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> Of course, it went nowhere as I didn't have any bribes prepared.
Gotta bribe more. Give the deadbeat offspring of a council-person a cushy job. No law against that as long as you don't write your influence motive down.
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City Council? You electric utility is controlled at the state level, not at the city level...
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LADWP is a city owned and operated utility company
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And it has to abide by the CPUC (California Public Utility Commissioner).
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by canux ( 735734 ) on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:16PM (#63634668)
I don't know the net breakdown of electricity consumption in India, but this is probably a bad idea. One big commercial electricity consumer is data centers and many implement something called "peak shaving" [next-kraftwerke.com] which is to run their diesel generators during times when the market price for electricity peaks. If India goes ahead with this plan there are going to be a lot of generators running every night.
There are much more environmentally friendly ways to implement peak shaving such as deploying giant banks of batteries (such as Tesla MegaPacks), but most don't do that because of the much higher up-front capital and the long ROI. Not to mention you still need gens if the requirement is to survive an extended outage.
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So, how many banks of batteries do you want to build, to provide, let's say, 1% of the power needed at night?
How do you charge them during daytime, when your grid actually is struggling to provide the power daytime users demand?
Sorry, you people are so delusional, it is not even funny.
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I guess I'm a bit surprised that not all countries have smart meters and some form of dynamic pricing (like hourly prices). I recently read that Germany (of all countries) doesn't have smart meters at all, and some countries have double meters, one for peak hours and one for off-peak.
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I recently read that Germany (of all countries) doesn't have smart meters at all
That is nonsense.
Of course we have smart meters.
But: the switch from ordinary meters is slow. As normal households have no real benefit from smart meters. At least that is what the public perceives. Then we have the horde of people who think with smart meters you can spy on one. Or at least know when one is at home and when not.and some countries have double meters, one for peak hours and one for off-peak.
Every country that has-
A smart meters send info about consumption continuously and is a requirement for dynamic tariffs.
So without a smart meter consumers can't take advantage of hourly contracts.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood regarding Germany or the article was old or incorrect.
But my point was that ordinary meters occasionally consisting of multiple meters is still common in many countries, and this was really about India.
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Solar is cheap, intermittent and unreliable, so this decision makes some sense as more solar is deployed there will be a power glut during the day and lean times at night. Does this also mean that solar power will be paid less and those generating reliable power will be paid more? This will actually create an incentive for the deployment of generation which operates in the non-peak times unless of course you use the night peak price to subsidise the deployment of even more solar.
If you're only at home durin -
It's called time of use and the most expensive time to use electric is between 4pm-9pm while the cheapest time is between 12a-5am. This has been this way for a long time here.
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