Dear Ubuntu…
source link: https://hackaday.com/2023/05/22/dear-ubuntu/
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Well, CLI time and editing configs, for my whole life i thought that’s the point of running Linux!
I would say that BEING ABLE to have useful CLI time and to edit configs is one of the major points of running Linux for those of us who live primarily in GUI-land. Mostly we want stuff to simply work and work well. Using a terminal, either because there’s no GUI alternative or because the command line is just faster and easier, is not a problem for most of us at all. HAVING to open a terminal to troubleshoot and fix things that used to ‘just work’ before an ‘upgrade’ initiated by some developer who believes that function follows form rather than the other way around, or that testing is for users, is a PITA and a loss of productivity.
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Jenny List says:
I can do it, I’m happy at the CLI. But I prefer my life not to be ruled by it.
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Ostracus says:
A much beloved minimalist abstraction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning…_Was_the_Command_Line
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johnrpm says:
I recommend MX linux, been number one on distrowatch for some time now.
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The Commenter Formerly Known As Ren says:
Is it poisoned by systemd?
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johnrpm says:
Default is no, but systemd stuff present to make it optional.
I have done a fair bit of distro hopping over the years, MX has been my daily for some time now, rock solid, keen Devs, although I am still fond of puppy for old hardware. -
Kenneth says:
I switched to MX about 5 years ago because of a lack of VPN support and backporting on a number of applications
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McNugget says:
Some of the Linux command like tools are sacred and there really is no logical reason to spend time loading up a gui when you can bang it out in a terminal. Ubuntu is still a throwback favorite of mine, but it’s definitely lost it’s luster. Canonical seem to be laser focused on making Ubuntu the Mac-OS of Linux. It’s got to be so easy that it breaks traditional Linux design in the spirit of making things that *should* work like magic, but are broken and the development team spread too thin to fix all their users gripes. They basically drifted too far to the corporate world. The problem with flying too close to the sun is you burn up at the chance of doing something never seen before. I’ll still happily use the distro, but it’s not something I place faith in. I really don’t keep documents or important things on it, let alone allow myself to become dependent on snap.
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Bri says:
Have you ever tried Deepin Linux? I was surprised what they did in very short time based on Debian. I know some content is not open source anymore but most things are just working. Faaaast.
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GP says:
> Canonical seem to be laser focused on making Ubuntu the Mac-OS of Linux.
Of course a lot of the problem there lies with Gnome which also adopted the “opinionated design” philosophy that Apple subscribes to.
With KDE it’s already a lot better because user choice is left, front and center there.
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Steven Naslund says:
You sort of drifted into the truth of all the various *nix systems ever invented. With one exception, they have all catered to the techy types that love digging around endlessly under the hood. Us computer types love to be able to tweak and change every little detail but are super quick to complain that our favorite peripheral doesn’t “just work”. Endless customization leads to endless compatibility problems. There has been really one major PC OS that managed to wrap up the complexity into a package your grandparents could use and that is Apple’s MACOS. The same things the geeks hate about MAC OS are the same things that make it easy to use and plug and play for the masses. What we call limitations and proprietary, Apple calls standardization and supportability. I write this coming all the way from the ms-dos vs vms days. Same arguments throughout the entire history of computing. You always have some balance between customization and standardization, also ease of use vs performance/flexibility. I contend that as in all industrial endeavors, things become more complex under the good and easier to use for the end user over time. The Ubuntu installation and peripheral compatibility you complain about today is light years ahead of a bare System V installation from 9 track tape and serial terminal setup back in the day. Just as a Windows setup today is light years ahead of the days of installing a TCP/IP stack on MS-DOS back in the 80s. Same arguments, different times.
Starting your car today is pushing a button. Starting your car in the past might have envolved setting chokes, pumping accelerators based on temperature and your cars temper, and hoping it would start at -10f. However you could fix that old car with a screwdriver and a wrench with no microprocessors or software in sight.
Over time you will amaze your friends with stories of actually needing drivers to be installed and regaling them with tales of how hard you had to work to do seemingly simple things. I have a good one about using Kermit with a custom built serial cable (not to mention figuring out a common file transfer protocol) to transfer a file between a PC and a Vax system with no compatible storage devices or network connections. Another good one about modifying big endian and little endian code to run on a mainframe and a PC because we were dealing with register manipulation. Totally ridiculous today but pretty cool fix at the time.
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Taranmeet Singh says:
What do you use now ?
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Urgon says:
I come from land of plenty, where everything just works and has GUI. Programs usually run fast, there are plenty of them, and only resource hogs can be slow, if your hardware doesn’t match requirements. CLI exists, but is almost never used. Editing config files? Only for some older pieces of software, usually to adjust for bigger resolutions. Come, join us, get Windows…
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spaceminions says:
For the CLI to be maximally useful, it needs to be underneath the GUI of everything, not just an emulated way to script things. And everything needs to be a file, and the parts of your OS need to be included. When your GUI program’s settings are stored in a text config file or files, all of a sudden it’s much easier to just get things set right and move on. Of course you should *live* in GUI mostly, but it should *work* on its own. Set the settings in GUI the first time, but make a copy of the config in case you need to repeat it. Or at minimum, at least make it *feasible* to write a script to configure things instead of everything requiring hands-on attention.
With a half decent CLI underneath, you don’t need to jump through 37 different menus to find a setting, only to discover that part of what you need to do is a registry hack and part of it can be done by GPO if you download the right admx, but no matter what the user is going to call you because of a popup at login that you have to tell them to ignore because Windows doesn’t even work well enough to know what other parts of itself are doing.
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Urgon says:
We used to have CLI that ran underneath the GUI. It was called DOS. It was dropped in NT line, and in main line since Windows 2000 or XP (I honestly can’t recall, which). No one in Windows land missed it.
CLI doesn’t need to be underneath everything else. It should be just another program, or set of programs with access to file system. In normal operation it’s not used at all, as every common task can be done in GUI. You write about saving and/or copying config files. Usually we don’t do that because all programs come with default settings that don’t need changing at all. If I have to change settings, it takes LESS time to open proper menu and edit them. The only times I even bother with config files editing is when I need to change setting not included in GUI or one that needs different value then selectable options. For example in some older games I had to edit resolution because these were developed before 16:9 or 16:10 monitors and HD resolutions. In Civilization 6 I had to edit by hand one line in config file to boost font sizes beyond default options. And most of those files, including save files for games and other stuff live in particular set of folders known as %appdata% – a shortcut name to access them directly. My %appdata% migrated with me for over 15 years, 3 Windows versions and 4 hardware platforms.
Linux/UNIX evolved over decades from early operating systems that ran on big mainframes and were operated via teletypes and later terminals. Despite the advance in technology most Linux users still behave and use it as if it was 1980’s. That’s why many “Linux for beginners” books I read has a few chapters on installing it, adding applications and using GUIs, which takes 1/4 to 1/3 of the book. Rest is dedicated to doing every common and basic task with CLI. Linux CLI – using arcane incantations and formulae to solve problems no one else has.
Also most settings are 2 menu levels away from main app window. Rarely it’s more than 3. And I’ve never encountered anything that used more than 5 levels. Even Linux apps with GUIs designed by rabid typists usually don’t go beyond 3 levels of ugly, non-intuitive interface mess.
Also what are and how to enable keyboard shortcuts in common Linux GUI’s to have a loupe, text-to-speech or just to invert colors? You know, useful accessibility options.
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spaceminions says:
I use it! It runs things, and doesn’t completely fail that often. You can put in enough effort to remove or disable many of the worst anti-features people hate. But without a bunch of extra stuff that isn’t part of the normal install, Windows does *weird* stuff and stupid fixes that shouldn’t work often do, for no particular reason. And there’s a lot of times you find out the way to solve some weird issue is to screw with the registry manually, which usually means shit is going to break over and over.
As for config files, I think you missed the part where I said that they should, as part of living in the GUI most of the time, be a reflection of what you set through GUI.
And if you’re studying big books about the nitty gritty of Linux and thinking that’s a typical way to use a Linux distro, that’s just silly. Install one of the popular easy ones, live in the GUI, and read a wiki if you need to know how to do something like everyone else.
For accessibility, I’d hit the super key and type accessibility, assuming I was on Mint.
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JimB says:
Windows, roflmao. Never in a million billion years thank you. I escaped it in the XP days and I will never go back. Not having to run anti programs that protect against security flaws is reason enough, then there is the freedom to make my OS whatever I want. Try removing and replacing the file manager in Windows.
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Urgon says:
Well, much changed since Windows XP. So you should just try Windows 10. Just for a week. Get a spare HDD/SSD so not to pollute your pure Linux box and use it. Later you can burn it or drop into ocean (if you have any nearby). I tried Linux, many times.
Why Linux has file manager and Windows has file explorer? Because in Linux land files need a babysitter that would manage them. Linux users never use them anyway, as in Linux land everything worth doing is worth doing in CLI.
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Uhtred son of Uhtred says:
Long time Linux nerd here. Sadly, there is some truth to this. I’m of the opinion that Win 10 is really, really good. Smoothest, most stable OS I’ve ever used. Even mature Linux distros STILL struggle with unpredictable errors that sometimes slow down my work flow. I don’t get it. Bizarre notifications from flatpaks? Yup, KDE. Unusable hiDPI? Yup, XFCE. At least Ubuntu’s implementation of Gnome is sane and more or less functional for anyone who uses their computer for stuff other than watching full-screen videos. Win 11? Nah, just Win 10 with a new coat of paint and less useful defaults.
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Urgon says:
I don’t plan to switch to Windows 11, it smells too much like Vista.
There is a reason why Linux is much less popular than Windows. And it’s stems from one of its fundamental rule: freedom of choice. That’s why there are 4 or 6 Linux families, each with dozens upon dozens of different distributions, and a dozen of GUIs to pick from. So each distro and each GUI needs a developer or entire team of developers. This spreads resources thin. And because Linux developers are also Linux users, used to CLI and the status quo, they don’t really think about user experience from the perspective of the beginner. People behind Ubuntu tried to fix that. Didn’t work out that well.
Windows is not perfect, it has its flaws. For example in some programs I have problems with correct font rendering – they broke font scaling and rendering somewhat. On my older PC I had driver issues with integrated sound card – microphone input didn’t work. I tried OpenSUSE, but UI was too small for my sight. I ended up buying USB headphones which worked on Windows. I don’t remember any other issues with Windows for the past 5+ years…
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Dude says:
Everybody talks about the beginners, but more seasoned users don’t want to be mucking about with CLI either.
The difference is that when you’re a programmer, you’re used to typing a lot of arcane commands and you can shake a dictionary’s worth of regular expressions out of your sleeve. You know the syntax exactly because you’ve written it a thousand times, so you don’t have to look at man pages or google for instructions to know how something is done. Regular users, beginners or otherwise, are not like that. They don’t poke at the innards of the operating system or the software they use all day long – they simply use it – so anything involving CLI or config files and scripts takes 100x longer even if they knew approximately what they were doing.
If you have to open a config file or a terminal window to accomplish a common tasks on your desktop computer, you have failed as a desktop operating system, because it’s equivalent to having to pull the front panel off your dishwasher to change the program.
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Chris Kellawan says:
Too right. I like playing with Linux, but all serious work occurs in Win 10.
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Techno John says:
ROFL, this comment had me rolling… thanks for the laugh! :D
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ricegf says:
You forgot the /s
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Jpsy says:
DON’T get Windows. I have to work with it each and every day and I hate it. Imagine an OS that – after ~40 years – is not capable to shift-scroll left to right! That alone would be a reason for me to switch. And there are so many other, technically more severe reasons. From the inability to correctly handle a mix of displays with different zoom factors to the totally broken option to place the swap file on anything but C:. It is a mess. It is a swamp.
The bitter truth is that there are so many echo systems like the Adobe suite that force you to use Win. Very sad.-
ApocalyptoSoldier says:
I shift+scroll on Windows all the time.
And had no trouble moving the swapfile to my E:\ drive
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Urgon says:
The reason, why major software packages are Windows exclusive is because there are too many Linux variants and GUIs to develop for them. Because of that market share of Linux is too small to support development costs.
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Jdams says:
I have a page file on each and every one of my physical and logical drives… and I have for years. Not that windows is perfect, but that’s not a real problem. And you can download a program to add that shortcut for your scrolling, although I never had the need to scroll left or right. Biggest windows issue to me is when it decides its going to suddenly restart for updates in the middle of me working on something. What???!! Give me a big timer I can’t cancel so I can save things, don’t just suddenly reboot!!
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cbarn says:
“Biggest windows issue to me is when it decides its going to suddenly restart for updates in the middle of me working on something. What???!! Give me a big timer I can’t cancel so I can save things, don’t just suddenly reboot!!”
This used to boil my blood too, since I had to use a Windows system for live performances (only place the software I needed would run, otherwise I’d have been on Linux for this too), and it would invariably decide the middle of a gig was the right time to update. My fix was to enable the “don’t reboot during working hours” option, then run a job every 8 hours in the task scheduler that would reset the working hours bracket to “an hour ago to 10 hours from now” (there was, at one time, a limit of 11 hours). Never saw an unplanned reboot on it again.
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KenN says:
I’ve never had the situation where Windows 10 forced or auto-started an update, there was always the choice to defer it or to schedule it.
Just sayin’. Windows is on my daily driver laptop, but Linux is on my other dedicated PCs.
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phuzz says:
You’ve been able to move the Windows page file (their name for swap) since the XP days at least, but more more importantly:
Why do you need swap?!
8GB of DDR4 can be had for less than £16 these days, and that’s enough to run most programs (even Chrome with lots of tabs open), *without* needing to swap. If your machine is swapping, then you need to think about upgrading your RAM. It’s not 1998 any more, RAM is cheap.
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Davidp says:
Bought a new machine with Win10 preinstalled. After it wouldn’t allow a login without an Internet connection I decided to read the EULA and Privacy Statements. (110 pages and 60 pages) Unplugged the HDD, replaced it with a larger, clean one and installed Zorin. I use Windows 10 at work and am reasonably happy with it. Why not at home? Because I don’t think MicroSoft should have rights to everything on MY machine that uses THEIR operating system. Read the documents! In short they say “What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine.”
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jenningsthecat says:
>> Come, join us, get Windows…
Forced upgrades? “Strongly encouraged” transition to rentware, AKA “Office 365”, AKA “Software As A Service”? Making it difficult to sign into the computer without the Microsoft account which I refuse to have? Advertising baked into the OS? Continual attempts to force the user onto Edge, to the point where MS ought to name it “Wedge” instead? No thanks!I run Linux Mint with XFCE. I have few problems, and I enjoy computing. As for “just works”, my last real Windows experience – admittedly back in the XP days – was not as problem free as my Linux experience is now.
I do sometimes wish Linux had a registry – I know that’s heresy to some Linux folks, but I see it as one of Windows’ few advantages. That gave me one location to customize things – and I did a fair bit of registry hacking under 2K and XP. But for me, even in the absence of a registry, Linux’s advantages make it far, far superior to anything Redmond has to offer.
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Ostracus says:
“Forced upgrades? “Strongly encouraged” transition to rentware, AKA “Office 365”, AKA “Software As A Service”?”
Office pro 2021. Real cheap if one looks around.
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KipWing3r says:
Commenting on a post about Linux to tell people to come to Windows is some energy-vampire level trolling.
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Techno John says:
IKR?! Was funny to read though.
Just a reminder folks, don’t feed the trolls :D
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Techno John says:
ROFL, that’s hilarious… oh man, thanks for the laugh.
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Techno John says:
Oops, brain fart and replied again… still funny LOL
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DrFyzziks says:
“Where everything just works” – I really can’t believe somebody actually wrote that about Windows, without sarcasm.
I’ll just leave this here – this popped up in my newsfeed today.
“Microsoft’s Surface Pro X cameras have stopped working for everyone”
https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/24/23735639/microsoft-surface-pro-x-camera-not-working-error-fix
oh and here’s an oldie but a goodie – it resulted in me spending nearly 2 weeks trying to diagnose a Surface Book 2 blue screen issue that happened repeatedly, even after full reinstalls of everything. I thought it was hardware – nope, turns out Microsoft had just decided to send unstable updates to anybody who clicked on “Get Updates” in Windows.
If you want a stable desktop operating system with a stable GUI that you don’t have to worry about, choose a Mac. If you want a stable desktop operating system with a choice of GUIs and the ability to tinker under the hood, choose Linux.
If on the other hand you want to play games or you don’t care about a stable operating system, choose Windows. Hey, at least it comes with a shortcut to Candy Crush pre-installed!
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RWood says:
>> So you should just try Windows 10. Just for a week.
>> Get a spare HDD/SSD so not to pollute your pure Linux box and use it.
>> Later you can burn it or drop into ocean (if you have any nearby).
>> I tried Linux, many times.The following is an honest question. Every time I’ve tried to understand windows licensing, I’ve never achieved any kind of clarity (but have gotten serious headaches). I’m assuming that if you are saying Win10 should be evaluated for a week, then the idea would be that it should be placed into full use if found to be OK.
I’m genuinely curious, how would one go about getting a new legally licensed and activated Win10 installed on anything (without some kind of already-existing volume license agreement)? Extra points if the installation could be legally transferred over time to completely new hardware (no OEM limitations). Double extra points if that did not require asking the vendor’s permission to legally use the OS on the new hardware. Triple extra points if the method described would allow easy and legal installation on a VM.
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