Hyundai Promises To Keep Buttons In Cars Because Touchscreen Controls Are Danger...
source link: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/23/03/21/2112259/hyundai-promises-to-keep-buttons-in-cars-because-touchscreen-controls-are-dangerous
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"When you're driving, it's hard to control it. This is why when it's a hard key it's easy to sense and feel it," said Lee. As far as he is concerned, physical controls are a necessity for anything that could impact safety. Hence the physical buttons and dials for items like the HVAC system and volume control. Lee hinted that while this is a priority for Hyundai today, things may change in future. In particular, the company will likely look at using touch controls more heavily when autonomous driving becomes mainstream. "When it comes to Level 4 autonomous driving, then we'll have everything soft key," said Lee.
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This isn't wrong, although one can get better at them with time, and some become completely adept.
There are some things that can help:
1. Voice commands can duplicate some touch screen functions. So far, one has to learn them, or at least learn which attempts work. In my experience, not everything that could benefit from them is provided.
2. There are aftermarket add-ons that look pretty decent and can restore some dials and buttons to cars like Teslas. I intend to try some at some point, right after I
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Voice commands can duplicate some touch screen functions
If you put that in cars, it will give "voice wreck ignition" its true meaning.
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I guess I know what company is making my next car. My wife drives a Hyundai. They are making some rather nice reliable cares these days.
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Love the Ioniq 6 - it doesn't apologize about being a car and doesn't pretend to be yet another SUV.
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Which is kind of a funny thing to praise Hyundai for, since their Venue basically is just a renamed Accent Hatchback done up to sort-of resemble an SUV.
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I rented a 2022 Hyundai Sonata. It's true that they kept the buttons. They even replaced the transmission gear selector shifter with a set of buttons, which I found annoying. Now I had to wait for the engine computer to cycle thru the gears from Drive, Neutral, Reverse then Park before I can turn off the engine.
I accidentally put on the electronic activated parking brakes on the rental and spent several minutes trying to figure out how to turn it off. Then a few more minutes to figure out how I turned it
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I agree that the touch screen can be a royal pain. In my car a lot of things can be controlled from the steering wheel, but things like turning off the A/C or fan is mostly on the touch screen. It's just not a great idea because you cannot use it easily while driving. I tend to wait until the road is straight, put my left thumb on the plastic next to the screen for stability, move my finger into the right spot while look back and forth quickly between road and screen many times, then tap. And even then,
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... does changing the volume require using a touchscreen?
Heck, on what sort of vehicle do you have to "dive into menus" to adjust the climate control?
(Let's even pretend voice commands don't exist while we're at it... doesn't change the picture.)
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He did say "things like".
And he's not wrong. I've got a 2018 North-American car which is pretty common. Turn on/off heated seats? Three touches, minimum. Change heating/cooling vent choices? Three clicks, minimum. There are user-shortcut icons on the main screen, but there's effectively only one really available after pinning "media". There aren't voice commands for this.
Regardless, the overall trend is towards more controls being touch and less being physical and Hyundai says they won't follow that trend. That's a good thing in my book.-
He did say "things like".
And he's not wrong. I've got a 2018 North-American car which is pretty common. Turn on/off heated seats? Three touches, minimum. Change heating/cooling vent choices? Three clicks, minimum. There are user-shortcut icons on the main screen, but there's effectively only one really available after pinning "media". There aren't voice commands for this.
Regardless, the overall trend is towards more controls being touch and less being physical and Hyundai says they won't follow that trend.
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Same with a Tesla: suddenly need your wipers and they don't automatically turn on? When fractions of a second count, you're fucking around with the touchscreen, averting your eyes ~30deg from what you need to be looking at. Don't get me started about all the other flaws.
This is tried-and-true tech and we've got brilliant aspies and retarded marketing majors thinking they're desperately trying to fix what's not broken - but in reality they're merely trying to kill us.
The solution to bad drivers?? It's not p
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Voice commands work poorly in a loud environment, say if you choose to have the window down. Also, frankly, I want a traditional interface - I don't like talking to stinking computers.
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They also work terribly if you don't have a perfect North American accent.
Not to mention, voice commands mean that, by definition, there's at least one microphone listening to you whenever you're in the car.
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The problem with privacy is less a microphone and more telematics. Connected cars are the real problem. A local mic processing speech locally would be a non-issue.
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Not true. They work well for people with British English accents.
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From watching British TV, it would seem they don't work well for Jeremy Clarkson or James May...
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More worrisome is what happens when a touchscreen fails and starts sending off false signals in the middle of driving (changing the volume, radio station, or worse yet the environmentals). I've had it happen in the past. In fact these days I keep a small washcloth in the car to ensure I wipe it before starting occasionally, to ensure that the touchscreen doesn't get dust/pollen buildup that can cause this by throwing off the calibration.
Having the touchscreen start changing things while the car is in motio
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Or the kid in the back seat throws his ice cream cone at it. I know what happens to my book reader when I even a slight amount of water on the touch screen.
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Or the driver next to you has that song playing really loud that includes the phrases
'turn car off'
'increase volume'
'turn right blinker on'
'roll all windows down'
'recline driver's seat'
'wash front window'-
So many crude jokes could be launched from this point....
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There's also the situation where knobs have been inappropriately replaced with buttons: in my MkV VW GTI, a really nice car by most measures, it took about 9 button presses to get the A/C to max cool upon getting in on a hot day. This on the "upgrade" climate controls. I think the stock config had knobs and no degree indicators.
By contrast, in my (sadly missed) MkV GTI all it took was one good CCW whip of the temp knob to get cold air. Thankfully my current Tacoma is sorta similar in temp controls.
I work in
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Ugh. Phone typing.
MkIV had buttons
MkV had knobs-
MkIII had knobs, physically controlling air dampers. Cheap, simple, cheerful, no electronic crap, sensors, or servos to break. Ludd is Good.
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Mine has a single real button for max-out-the-fan-and-A/C. But then quite a lot of touch screen taps to turn it back down to a reasonable level...
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I still own older vehicles with all physical controls, but I've got a GPS on the windshield and my phone playing music, both of which require touch. The GPS isn't so bad, as I have it positioned at the perfect spot to let me rest my wrist while my fingers do the walking. This provides me with (A) minimum visual distance from the road, and (B) my hand is VERY steady on the touches since my finger is supported merely inches away.
The PHONE on the other hand, oh that can be annoying. If I want to skip ahead
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My 2012 Kia does for the volume.
There is an additional volume on the steering wheel but the main volume is the touchscreen. -
For mine this is on the streeting wheel, it's easy to use. Then two other buttons next to that which change the channel up/down, hold to seek, etc. So not bad. But some things just aren't easily done that way. The touch screen part really needed more work though; the default one in the car that, I don't use the CarPlay app from the iphone by default which tends to be better, those apps want me to be plugged in and usually want cellular data turned on also.
For climate control, mine does have some control
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I have a Kia (KN?) which like it's parent company has knobs and buttons it definitely makes things easier to use.
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In my humble opinion, BMW has the best compromise. Everything is accessible by a physical control knob placed between the handbrake and the gear stick.
You can operate the menus and functions without too much distraction, just glancing at the screen and often just going by memory keeping your eyes focussed on the road.
I know Mazda has a similar interface, not sure about other brands-
by Gription ( 1006467 ) on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @06:41PM (#63388941)
If you can't operate it without looking away from what's outside the windscreen it is dangerous.
"I'll only glance at it for a second." But if your honest with yourself looking at anything is 2 seconds. At 60 miles an hour you just traveled 176 feet.
Add the standard reaction time to get on the brakes (quoted in most studies as 1 second). You've now traveled 264 feet.
Anything that demands that you have to look away from the road is dangerous. Everyone knows that they have been surprised by something as they go down the road. "It's only a ridiculously small chance it could happen right now." And if you repeat an "incredibly small chance" over and over and over it becomes inevitable.
-> It Is Dangerous.-
Totally agree. Real buttons are tactile... although your mind isn't 100% on the road, your eyes are there. A BMW still has loads of buttons and the most important ones are and the absurdly expensive steering wheel.
But if comparing to touchscreen where you have to follow and direct your fingers, the "knob" (plus having the control screen higher up on the dashboard) largely mitigates the risk coefficient. Still not zero, I'll give you that;-) -
Wait until you learn what most people do to check their speed, know their fuel level, and check if their engine is operating correctly.
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"Steam gauges" - you can see something is amiss by the needle position, without even focusing on it. Normal temp, voltage and oil pressure are horizontal or vertical in a properly designed analog dash.
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That how it is done in aircraft. If you look at the cockpit of a modern aircraft, like the Airbus A350 airliner, or the F-35 fighter, you mainly will see large screens, some of them touchscreens, but there are still plenty of physical controls for the important parts, in convenient locations, and recognizable by touch. You can also control what's on the screens with physical buttons.
The difference is that aircraft manufacturers actually care about ergonomics and safety, that's because people who buy and fly
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Agree, I've owned a couple BMWs. My 2019 has CarPlay, which looks great but I hate how you have to menu-dive with iDrive knob to use Maps (anything else on your phone for that matter.) You can use touch screen but that is even more distracting to me.
I also like how BMW has the programmable soft keys that are one touch for certain settings including phone calls.
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Don't have button and only electronic brake.
It'S a shame-
There is a big button you push with your foot... Oh you mean the parking brake. Mostly brakes are reliable enough now that it looks like manufacturers have deemed a physical hand brake as unnecessary. No more useless and unsafe handbrake turns for you hahahahaha.
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Yep, the fucking nanny shits have killed all of the fun of driving. First they came for manual transmissions, then for direct control over braking. This being said, there is something to be said for brakes (and steering) that still work no matter whether the electrical system is on or not. But hey, the marketeers know better than engineers.
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> direct control over braking
I'm not an expert. Could you explain which auto you are driving and if that auto uses hydraulic braking, why that auto is considered not direct control?
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Quite a few newer cars use brake-by-wire. Brake-by-wire + electric handbrake seems like the worst of all worlds.
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Hi Fly, great point, sorry no mod points. Already in the 80's I was taught that the handbrake is useless. We dutifully engaged when parking on a slope, together with more useful measures like aiming wheels to the curb. Do you know the current state of the handbrake?
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How different, from a perspective of driving safely, is using touchscreen controls vs using a mobile phone? The driver's eyes must be on the road, not anything else. Anything that distracts from that shouldn't be permitted while driving. Everything except viewing the controls on the dash must be tactile.
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I'm the UK they teach how to use a sat nav, occasionally looking at the screen. It's perfectly possible to do safely.
It's trying to touch items on a screen that is the issue. Not only do you have to look, and don't get tactile feedback, but they activate as soon as you touch. You can run your fingers over physical buttons without activating them, not so on a touchscreen.
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I think it's less-bad because the controls and fonts are larger, and less overall interaction is required. For car controls you're just reading labels, not text, and poking a virtual button a few times. I still prefer not having to look at all, and just operate the controls by feel, or with a glance at most.
This announcement will make me more likely to buy a Hyundai for my next car.
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Um, you are not supposed to use your mobile phone while driving.
I agree that tactile buttons are generally safer because you don't have to shift your eyes.
But do note that touch-screens could still be improved, such as having "giant buttons" and numbered menu items/buttons so you can use voice to speak the number as an alternative. On my touch-screen navigation system its silly how they don't use available screen real-estate to make some buttons larger. There are often tiny buttons sitting in the middle of
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In my observation a majority of mobile phone mounts seem to live in the lower corner of the windscreen against the drivers "A" pillar. Based on my rudimentary understanding of human vision, this would still leave the road and what was occurring in front of you within your area of active focus should you cock your eyes 15* sideways to see the fresh memes your aunt just posted.
This is vastly different from looking at lest 30* or more down and sideways at the dash screen, a good chunk of your focus area is now
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by Turkinolith ( 7180598 ) on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @06:21PM (#63388875)
This is one thing I like about my 22 Tacoma vs my 20 Subaru. The Subaru has not only a touch screen for most of its controls but it has NESTED menus for some basic functions like adjusting temperature and other AC settings, which is not something you want to be fumbling around trying to see what's on the screen while driving.
Meanwhile the Tacoma has individual buttons for things like this which have tactile feedback.
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... and it's not like you'll ever NOT need temperature, air volume, and air direction controls. So why not just have knobs for those functions? It's not like 3 or 4 rotary encoder knobs would add significant weight or complexity.
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Step 1. Remove all the real buttons from all the cars.
Step 2. Piss everyone off. People buy the crap because they have no other choice.
Step 3. Designers pat themselves on the back because of how many units they sold. Dismiss any criticism as being from the unenlightened and therefore not worth of consideration.-
Yep, same idea as remaking all of the sedans and hatchbacks as lifted, tarted-up SUV/CUV grub-looking things. People will buy 'em because they have no other choice, even though the designs as suboptimal in many ways.
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What about physical buttons that are on the edges of the screen and can even change functions depending on what "mode" you're in? The current usage of the button can be displayed on the screen right next to it. The button could even be transparent and placed over the screen, so its legend can change as needed?
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How do you know what "mode" you're on? You take your eyes off the road and read the screen. That's fine on my oscilloscope, but not on a 100kW+ killing machine.
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They still need to work on their basic security though. Hotwire by USB is a big black eye for them.
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Getting in a strange relatively high end car of a different make than you're used to is always an instant learning curve to find the important buttons. With time and practice you can find them without looking but it still takes practice.
A Touch Screen is arguably a bit more of a radical shift but again with a little practice it gets to feel quite natural for the most part, there are still a few awkward points that are readily bridged with voice commands but even that is uncommon.
The advantage of the t-
I have dysautonomia... "letting the climate control cum-puker just do its thing" is a recipe for discomfort... I adjust the temp dial and seat heat once every few minutes.
Also, a PC board, one microcontroller, and a few rotary encoders aren't expensive. I'd rather have real controls than a lot of the stupid geewgaws that are mandatory on most cars sold in the US. I could live without electric chairs... I mean power seats... for one thing. Same with power trunklids, dual zone everything, even navigatio
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".. a PC board, one microcontroller, and a few rotary encoders aren't expensive.
Actually they are... times a million at production levels. Even so the greater expense is their installation and wiring during manufacture.
I mostly leave climate on automatic, which works well as it's all via the heat pump and not dependent upon varying heat from the engine, but if you adjust every few minutes you could turn voice commands into a song as you drive:
I'm Hot
dum diddi ddiddi dum didi dum
My Butt's Co-
I don't want to talk to a stinking computer. Ludd! Ludd! Ludududd! THAT'S my song.
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And oh my fucking God. My car might cost $25 more. I'd happily pay that not to have to sift through menus on a stink screen or talk to a foul cum-pooter. Better yet, can I have a car at the same price with real knobs and buttons, but without stupid shit like power seats?
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Also, my song won't be so nice. It will be more like screaming myself hoarse from rage.
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Sure the guy is perfectly right, but why does he even need to state this? Putting anything safety-relevant on a touchscreen in a car should lead to instant, full liability for any and all accidents that causes.
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I don't understand why the automakers keep getting rid of physical buttons for safety critical systems. They save some money up front but the back end liability can be substantial.
Take for example Tesla. They had to perform recalls because their touchscreen systems eventually wore out the flash memory on the Tegra 3 processors and the screen stopped working. You would think fine-- if the car is under warranty, Tesla needs to fix, otherwise the owners are on the hook. But because the screen controlled safety features such as windshield defrost and back-up camera, Tesla needed to do a recall even on cars well past the warranty period.
Screens (with or without touchscreen) to control safety features seems like such a bad idea on so many levels. Windshield defrost should be one button press away at all times.
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...Windshield defrost should be one button press away at all times.
I agree! That's why I docked mine on the always availble ribbon at the bottom. One touch.
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I have a 2015 Subaru with what I guess is called a climate control upgrade package. There's a large knob with tactical feedback to change the interior temperature. Some days I want it set at 71F, some days maybe 74F, easy peasy. The only other button I ever touch is the one for the the rear window defroster and then only on those rare days when it's needed. How difficult can this really be?
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I want to change the air direction as well - sometimes I like it blowing on my feet, sometimes I want it on my face, sometimes I need front defrost. I DON'T want the fucking cum-pooter running the car deciding what's best for me in this respect... if I want cool air on my face, I don't want to be second-guessed by HAL 900.
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Touch Screens and water are a bad mix.
Complex control UIs and stress are well known problems. That should have been addressed at system testing, if not earlier, but that's a whole different subject.
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I so agree with this!
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Touch screen avionics (aircraft electronics) makers have shunned touchscreen displays for the same reasons listed here. Of course, that didn't stop the replacement of GPS/Nav systems with Ipads.
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4 corners and the middle, active on release. That way you can hit the touchscreen anywhere, slide to a corner and release, or back away from that corner for the 5th "button". The border of the touchscreen needs to have a raised bevel.
Anything else sucks in a vehicle - you have to be able to use the controls by feel, not by sight.
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Like a child's toy?
Can you really not just say, "Car, play 'I Can't Drive 55'" or maybe "Warm Leatherette"?
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is that the screen "button" registers my touch by changing colour only to find that the selection wasn't made when I look at the screen again. You don't have that issue with physical buttons. I don't understand why bother showing a different colour on touch when no selection is made.
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Touchscreens are fine as long as you never need to look out the windshield. Otherwise, you might as well just paint over the windows and drive by camera/video feed only.
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I find my RAV 4 much harder to use than my old CR-V. The buttons have little in the way of geometry to help your fingers find them. Good molding is essential to making a physical button matter.
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Shame they still decided to make the center stack all capacitive on my Hyundai. At least I don't have to go through nested menus for commonly used functionality while driving.
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