JPMorgan Chase Requires Tech Workers Give 6 Months Notice Before Quitting - Slas...
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JPMorgan Chase Requires Tech Workers Give 6 Months Notice Before Quitting
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Taking to the social media platform Blind -- which allows career professionals anonymity so that they can freely post without concern about retribution from their bosses -- the worker in the e-trade division lamented over the policy. "So I had made up my mind to resign from JPM (New York) and look for a new role," the Blind poster wrote in an item titled, "Notice period blues. When I looked into the resignation process, I see that my notice period is 6 bloody months!! I was in disbelief, I checked my offer letter and 'Whoops there it is,'" the post continued.
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If he didn't bother to read and understand his offer letter, why should anyone have any sympathy for him?
A better question is why someone who was too stupid or lazy to read his offer letter would be worth $400k to anyone.-
> too stupid or lazy to read
Must be a management position.
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It's JPM, what else could it be than a pencil-pushing job?
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The headline says "tech workers". Do you think the lowly help desk guy who makes $30k will give 6 months notice? I sure don't.
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Is that enforceable? If it is enforceable how do you miss the fact that you signed a contract? Does JP Morgan also have to give 6 months notice before a layoff?
If you want out of the job, just stop going to work. The problem will resolve itself. If armed guards take you to work at gun point then just do a lousy job until you're let go.
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They obviously can't force you to work.
But, they can get a court order to take 6 months wages from you. You voluntarily agreed to 6 months notice.
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enforce? this is jp morgan chase, they won't even try to enforce. they will just sue you to oblivion after the fact, any district judge will eagerly comply and destroy your fancy life and not one of the board directors will bat an eyelid nor probably even know about the whole issue or who you even are.
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No. Even the summary says "When I looked into the resignation process, I see that my notice period is 6 bloody months!! I was in disbelief, I checked my offer letter and ‘Whoops there it is". The article adds "My fault completely for overlooking this section before deciding to interview". So it wasn't a new policy - the guy just didn't fully read the offer.
That happens sometimes - even to Slashdotters reading summaries. But of course it's never happened to me...;-)
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Right you are. I misread the 15 years experience to mean 15 years at JPM, which is almost certainly not the case. I mean who keeps an offer letter for 15 years. The article is not the clearest written. But that is modern editing. None.
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Two million will get you a tiny one-bedroom condo. Not an especially nice one.
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by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Friday March 03, 2023 @03:48PM (#63339945)
(1) Wondering how that 6 months notice will be realistically enforced?
(B) Will JPM conversely be giving people 6 months notice before firing them?-
(1) via contract. Most states are at-will, but you can override it:
https://www.justia.com/employm... [justia.com](2) Who knows. There has to be some kind of consideration and meeting-of-the-minds for it to be enforceable though.
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If a 6-month notice before quitting is enforceable in a contract, is there a maximum limit on the notice period? How about a 2-year notice? How about a 20-year notice? To me, a 6-month notice is just as unreasonable as a 20-year notice. Would such a limit be up to a judge. And if there is no such limit, how about a contract that mandates that quitting is illegal?
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Common law generally assumes a reasonable cap that isn't indefinite. Lots of old contracts (typically for property rights or leases) were for 99 years because 100 years we considered infinite and not valid in a contract by some well meaning judge.
I'd argue the upper limit in an employment contract is number of years to a typical retirement age of 65. If someone is 30 when they sign on, anything beyond 35 years is pretty clearly out of bounds. Not all that helpful in this case, I only mention it to demonstra
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That's how Britain lost Hong Kong. They put the century into the treaty mainly as compromise to allow China to save face by saying they weren't permanentlylosing Hong Kong.
But, both sides expected it to be permanently British territory. They didn't know that in a century the British would actually care about following the law and sovereign integrity
Hong Kong would've been better if Britain either didn't give it back, OR they gave it to the ROC, and said tthey were the legitimate successor state. Giving Hon
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(2) Who knows. There has to be some kind of consideration and meeting-of-the-minds for it to be enforceable though.
I want to give you $100K for your exemplary performance. My condition is that you have to give us 6 months notice if you want to leave. If you cancel early then you have to return a pro-rated amount of this money.
I mean, I suppose you COULD refuse such a contract, but I'm pretty sure people would rather get the money and deal with the notice period if it crops up than to avoid the issue and not
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This is how stock options work typically. They have stipulations like they aren't vested until 3+ years later. If you leave earlier, you lose them.
If you give them out each year as a major part of their bonus, it is a big carrot on a leash keeping them at the company.
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by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 03, 2023 @04:00PM (#63340029)
Posting AC for obvious reasons. Working at a competitor to JPM, there's a similar policy. This is not really legal, since we are 'at will'. The way they enforce it is by having each year's bonus tied to a clause in the acceptance that reads something like. "You can of course quit at any time, but if you don't give X time notice, you agree to forfeit and return the discretionary bonus". It's legal, because the bonus is discretionary.-
That what I thought. Nobody can make you work -- not to mention solve problems creatively -- if you don't want to.
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Damn...GE paid me next year's bonus after laying me off. Crazy...huge chunk of change shows up from GE a year after I forgot all about them.
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Return? Perhaps they can withhold some agreed upon severance package. But once I've got that discretionary bonus in hand, returning it might be difficult. Some $100 bills completely tainted with cocaine and a few bow-legged hookers. Here ya' go.
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Don't worry. Attorneys will dive into your assets and extract it even if they need to liquidate your cars, secondary homes, etc.
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1) Exactly - what are they going to do...fire him? I suppose they could attempt to sue, but I think they'd end up wasting more legal fees and time than they'd recoup, and garner a lot of bad publicity.
B) Not a chance
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> I suppose they could attempt to sue...
...the new employer, for tortious interference. Want to see how many employers will try to defend against that to get a new employer? -
At $400k 'total compensation'', there's room for a lot of funky compensation.
E.g. $150k base salary, $50k typical cash bonus, another $150k in stock grants that will be forfeited on leaving, and maybe a $50k cash bonus with a 'clawback' provision. Basically they declare that they are effectively giving you a $50k bonus in a year, but paying out to you now, but you have to pay it back if you voluntarily leave.
In terms of giving plenty of warning before laying off, there's also a likelihood of a large cash payout guaranteed in the event of termination. E.g. that $50k advance might also have the next year's $50k teed up to have to pay out in case of termination before that year comes up, and a contractual guarantee of six months severance pay, including pro-rated cash bonus payout. So you may not get six months warning, but you may be contractually entitled to six months of pay, which is even better than having to work during that time, with the possibility of getting a new job during the six months.
Folks making $400k/year typically are *well* set for termination in their contracts. The people that should have least need of such guarantees are the most likely to have guarantees compared to more typical jobs.
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Now they can probably get similar compensation elsewhere especially if lot of it is stock grants that vest. Most tech jobs I've been at have had some stock vesting - none of them companies ever likely to make it big suddenly. None of my compensation every really made me have second thoughts about leaving; the next job had higher salary and easily outgrew the value. Most companies don't grow by leaps and bounds and the majority of their compensation is in plain salary and you make more money by investing
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while giving a factory worker on minimum wage a contract saying he can't work elsewhere for X period is completely unenforceable, giving the same to someone that is well compensated for the inconvenience and cost of that is very enforceable. If they have done it correctly and ensured that part of the salary is there to compensate for this then it is enforceable in most places.
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Exactly! Resignation process? Seriously wtf. It's easy write a letter to your boss stating you quit and never show up again. Unless you signed some contract you are not under any requirement to keep showing up.
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It's to dissuade people quitting. In reality would you want some working six months for you when they don't want to be there, likely they'll be more of a negative force, and at 400k that's quite expensive.
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If you don't perform during the six months, you will fired for cause, and lose your severance package (at least).
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Simply failing to perform (as desired/expected) isn't a legal justification for dismissal for cause -- at least in Virginia, I know for sure. In general, firing for cause requires misconduct on the part of the employee. From a West Virginia law site What Does It Mean to Be Fired For-Cause? [lawwv.com], via Google requirement firing for cause [google.com]:
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How much productive work is Chase going to get from someone who has to wait 6 months after they decide to leave?
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In sone European countries long notice periods from the employee is common, 1-3 months. E.g. norway. And i have seen many employees stay during that period and its not weird etc. and they seem to perform. Its just a different norm. If the employee doesn't perform it could have repercussions: they will lose salary (and the other deal starts in X months) they will get a bad referral etc. If they don't show up it could even have legal repercussions cf liability for losses.
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Slavery is illegal in the United States. He can quit any time he wants. He may have to pay some sort of penalty (which he agreed to when he took the job), but they can't make him stay.
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How is the draft not a violation? Even some soldiers were legally kept in because of stop-loss provisions.
What would happen if the guy stopped showing up or refused to do anything at the office or did something that warranted getting fired?
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It's if YOU decide to commit a crime. You have to be convicted of a crime first.
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According to the 13th Amendment, yes it is.
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted"-
What makes you think "except as a punishment..." was meant to excuse slavery, instead of its immediately preceeding subject involuntary servitude?
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Sorry, not really seeing a difference between slavery and involuntary servitude.
Sounds like you want to excuse your desire for slavery by disguising it by calling something else.-
Slavery is when you're made to do work for no reason of your own manifestation. If you bought yourself involuntary servitude, it's because you're being made to account for some illegal act you did. By committing a crime against the state, you've put yourself in its debt. If you steal, you owe the state for depriving it. It's a penalty.
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They won't. It disagrees with their interpretation of the constitution. The one that says shooting children is fine and that we should hand them out at birth so that the kids can defend themselves?
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Is it a policy, or a contractual obligation? Unless there's an employment contract that requires it, the company's options are pretty limited (especially with the department of labor pushing to make non-competes illegal across the US). They can not give him any kind of severance, they can give him a bad referral, but what other options do they have?
And if there is an employment contract that requires it, perhaps he shouldn't have signed it without reading it first.
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does it work both ways? if then tell the BOSS TO FUCK IT and just stop working there.
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Right! Go make 400k somewhere else!
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I think that's the issue. He would be making at least that elsewhere, except according to these policies he can't.
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Obligatory Office Space: https://youtu.be/VHNx5ZReZ8Q [youtu.be]
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by test321 ( 8891681 ) on Friday March 03, 2023 @03:58PM (#63340019)
My leave notice is also 6 months and this is supposed to be a big advantage because work law is symmetric, meaning they also have to keep paying me for 6 months if they decide to send me away. It also makes sense because when working in specialized fields, it might take 6 months to find an equivalent job, and relocate a thousand kilometers away. (I'm not high pay person, and this is in Europe.)
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could be a lot of reasons. contracts are enforceable in many states.
one example I've seen is a brother-in-law I had took a job flying helicopters for some oil rig companies. to get certified on that specific helicopter, training was required. when he quit 3-4 months later, he damn well had to pay for the remainder of his training he hadn't worked off yet. (yeah, it took place in Africa, but it was a US company)
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These aren't non-compete clauses. They are likely "good leaver" clauses. I.e. the person can leave right now but would have to give up a shit-ton of benefits if they do.
I have the same kind of thing. My formal notice period is 2 weeks. My good leaver notice period is 5 months. I would literally cost me $120k if I left earlier, and I don't earn that much in that period, and likely wouldn't at my future job either.
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Peasants are restless again, m'lord Morgan.
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I thought it was abolished. How can they prevent you from stopping going to work?
Ok, this is the US, I guess they will have Draconian clauses in the contract and they will sue you till you starve to death.
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Slavery was not abolished in the USA. It was limited to a small set of circumstances.
As others have posted, they can't, but they can sue you to force you to return some of the the bonuses you received.
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Just one really. Its just big enough to drive a moon thru.
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I just don't come in tomorrow. What you gonna do? Fire me?
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People will just raise the middle finger to that practice. Either directly or by intentionally slacking off and generally being terrible at their job
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Most companies want you gone immediately so you don't fuck things up internally. Plus, it may go against "employment at will" state law. Idea: "Silent quit" at JP and start the new job for 500k per year.
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Actually most companies want an orderly transition period especially for high value employees which is why these things exist in the first place. Also "at will" employment isn't relevant here. They will lock your severance and benefits to the leave period. You can leave tomorrow, or you may even get fired within your notice period, but damn that could be expensive for you.
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While requiring a 6-month notice (some companies will just call it a 6-month gap before working elsewhere, where you are on paid leave, some states won't allow such restrictions. AFAIK, states like Texas side with corporations, apparently still believing slavery is legal (even though it may be paid). This is in comparison w/states like California that forbid such employment restrictions.
Like someone else commented, if you announce you are leaving, are they going to force you to come into work and sabotage their systems? Most companies terminate your computer and office access immediately, when you resign. It's too ripe for abuse if they don't. So what it becomes is a paid, forced, 6-month gap before you can work elsewhere -- such is illegal in some states, legal in others.
My sister's husband was an children's EarNoseThroat doctor, who upon wanting to go into private practice was told that he couldn't practice in a multi-county area around Dallas, so he couldn't compete w/his ex employer. I think he was allowed to leave after he worked out some compromise with them.
In California, it is expected, you can change jobs at will, as long as you don't take company secrets with you to the new employer.
In other states, it depends on how close the work at the two companies would be to being 'competing' work.
I can see the reasoning for it, but it gets a bit too close to your previous employer "owning you" when you wish to depart. Ick.
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Right-to-work is not applicable here. That's related to unions. You probably mean at-will employment.
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yes, I mis-remembered the right phrase. Thanks for correcting it!
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No they don't. Some companies do. Many others expect an orderly transition and use this as a reason for the long notice period in the first place.
Also you may be missing the details. I'm willing to bet the person could leave tomorrow (or in 2 weeks) if they wanted to. Forced employment isn't legal in most places. The thing is that in many places (even at-will employment states) still very much allow good leaver bonuses. Sure you can quit tomorrow, but it may cost you a very expensive chunk of your bonus /
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by bugs2squash ( 1132591 ) on Friday March 03, 2023 @04:15PM (#63340105)
I had a clause like this in my contract once, so I gave the required 3-months' notice and they immediately sent me home - too many sensitive customer details around for me to be involved with, not that I was leaving for a competitor.
The 3 months became a real problem for them, and a relaxing time for me.
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If you can't afford to buy your way out of the contract, you're a financial failure who doesn't deserve a job in the industry.
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...about the hardships suffered by someone making $400k.
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Nobody has addressed how "magically" JPM/Chase has created a 6-month notice window.
Was it a contract? An employment contract? A change in T&Cs? Notice provided?That information would be valuable. Neither the article cited nor the slashdot summary provides that.
This is a nothingburger and the $400K/yr guy is a bullshit story.
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It's literally in the first line of the article:
And the fact it is a 'policy' is mentioned at least two more times in the article. I love when people that clearly didn't read the article declare that info is missing from said article.
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What are they going to do? Fire you?
Check the contract and see if they have a policy on having two jobs.
Also, make it clear to your new job that you need a signing bonus to make up for this issue.
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Any state with a "right to work" law (i.e. right to fire for no reason) can't force this. Lots of states have this.
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Right-to-work is union related. At-will employment is the term.
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From the article:
From the original post by the employee:
It doesn't even sound like the policy was around when he was hired. So... give two weeks notice and then leave after two weeks. When they come to you with the 'company policy' in hand, politely point out that you do not work for the company, so the policy is irrelevant.
Do courts enforce 'company policies'?
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The thing is, the "requirement" to give two weeks notice that most employees commonly deal with only affects when you receive your final paycheck: on giving two weeks notice your employer is then obligated to cut you your final paycheck on your last day. But you can quit under the law with zero notice--though it means your former employer now has two weeks to cut your final check.
In other words, commonly speaking, the requirement to give notice before leaving is not a requirement; it's a courtesy, and the consequence is simply logistical, not punitive.
So I'm curious about JPMorgan's contract; what are they giving for that six months? Because they cannot force you to actually work for six months--after all, what are they going to do if you decide to show up to work and just sit there at your desk doing nothing? Fire you? And it seems they reasonably can't claim part of your salary is in compensation for this six month exit requirement; it's your salary. I'd be curious what the contract actually reads, because if it reads "you shall give us six months notice" but does not have a consequence tied to it, then it's like those "non-competes" lawyers have you sign in California: it's a meaningless bullshit threat that cannot be enforced. And if JPMorgan says "or else you have to pay us a $50,000 penalty"--(a) how is that not buying your indentured servitude contract? and (b) if you get a good enough job offer, maybe you'll say "yeah, sure; here' your $50,000, now go fuck off."
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JP Morgan etc they do not give 6 days let alone 6 months notice they are sacking someone.
Add to that the At Will states.
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Dang, I knew Wall Street financial firms had a lot of power but I hadn't heard they got a new Amendment passed exempting them from the 13th.
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If it's just a policy and they don't have the employee's signature on a document agreeing to the policy on or after the date the notice period rule came into effect, the employee can just tell them to f**k themselves.
If the employee did sign something agreeing to the six-month notice period, then they have to deal with the consequences.
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I would submit that $400k/yr is actually low in most HCOL areas for 15 years experience. I was making $580k/yr by that point in my career as a hardware designer.
I bet this is tied to a discretionary bonus clawback. In which case you simply go to the new employer and say "you have to buy out my bonus from my previous employer if you want me to start tomorrow". They typically do, you quit the next day, and your new employer writes a check to your old one. Easy peasy.
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Exactly.
I'm trying to figure out who the fuck is wanting to give up on a 400K/yr job!?!
Geez, they'd have to drag me out the door to get me to leave that job....especially after 15yrs inside.
At this stage, it would sound like he has pretty much a guaranteed job of $400K/yr till retirement, and if he actually saves money like he should, even if THEY can him at some time in the future, he can retire to the good life and not worry about it.
Sheesh...not sure how someone can complain about this one.
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I'm trying to figure out who the fuck is wanting to give up on a 400K/yr job!?!
Someone who was just offered a $500K/yr job?
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It always amazes me when people think you make $X that means you have no right to complain.
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It always amazes me when people think you make $X that means you have no right to complain.
I suppose you could complain...but with that kinda money...why? WTF could be so bad?
Hell, if I'd been pulling the kinda money in for 15years, I'd not only not be complaining, I'd not be working at all anymore...I'd be retired and enjoying life, friends, family and hobbies.
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Sounds like you live in a low cost of living area when there are no such jobs.
Near San Francisco, unless you came 20 years ago and got into a rent controlled apartment or are sharing an apartment, that money will let you have a decent living, but forget about retiring in 15 years. -
Who said something is bad? The question isn't whether something is bad, it's whether something else is better.
I actually know someone in that position. He makes 4x as much as I do, but at 4:30 in the afternoon I walk out the door and go enjoy my life. He's still there putting in the hard work, burning himself out trying to get a partner position and fend off others who don't give a shit about their personal life in pursuit of their career.
It's not just pay rises, many such people burn out and want to leave,
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>> Yeah, but don't except me to feel any kind of symphony for the 1%
That kind of attitude can orchestrate a whole lot of resentment.
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Then perhaps the workers should band together?
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I'm trying to figure out who the fuck is wanting to give up on a 400K/yr job!?!
Someone who was just offered a $500K/yr job?
Lol...touche.
But just thinking...the guy has been there 15 years, and I know likely not making $400K from the start but you gotta figure what $250K to start maybe?
And let's figure he's been making the $400K for at least the past 5 years.
With proper saving and investment that whole time.....if it were that bad at the job, he could just quit, and retire.
I mean, why keep working..
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They guy has to have a few million put away earning money, why keep working?
A string of ex-wives? He may just have married his next ex and has to plan ahead financially.
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Big Lou is just like you (except he's only on number two).
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I'm trying to figure out how someone who is too lazy to read a $400k/year contract for their own compensation can be worth $500k/year.
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exactly.
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Who said lazy? When did he sign the contract? Do you know the exact details of your contract? I don't. I signed it 10 years ago and I will refer to it when I need to, otherwise it has no impact on me.
I actually do know my notice period. Why? Because I was pissed off enough last year that I looked it up when contemplating my career. I didn't act on it, and I bet you in a few years I'll probably have completely forgotten.
If I am paying $500k / year for someone their head better be full of useful things, not t
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If they're offering that much, they probably don't care if he has to wait 6 months to be honest. You don't offer that kind of money unless you REALLY want this particular person for some extraordinary reason.
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These are amazingly high stress jobs. Once you have a certain amount of money you don't need more. It's like asking "why would anyonre every want to retire as long as there's pay?"
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It says the guy works on Wall Street. $400K/yr in NYC is way way less than $400K/yr in Austin, TX.
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Actually, money isn't everything. You'd be surprised.
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Accept the letter. Quit when you want. How are they supposed to enforce that? Let them try. If they find a dumb judge, agree to go back to work for their IT group and make them regret it. You will likely find an equally idiot judge.
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They may not be able to force them to work, but the company can easily get a judge to say you owe them 6 months wages. They voluntarily agreed to give 6 months notice.
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Nope. You'd only owe them those wages if they'd already paid them for time not worked. You wouldn't owe them if they hadn't been paid.
Furthermore, in most Right to Work states, I believe that this would be unenforceable.
Also, in Massachusetts I think this could be seen as a non-complete clause. You could quit immediately (without notice, right to work), and if they then tried to enforce the 6 months, they would have to pay it as "Garden Leave", without you actually needing to work (You quit, remember).
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In Denmark you can be liable for the employers losses if you do that. This could include costs for quickly onboarding consultants, lost business opportunities etc. Further, you at a minimum have to pay half a month salary as compensation even if the employer can't demonstrate a specific loss (this is not advance salary being paid back, it really is for the liability of breaking the contract )
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I've worked at places where if they fired you, you were required to return any discretionary bonuses (a sign on bonus in my case). I've always seen a time limit attached to it though, 3 months or 6 months.
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