Ubuntu Flavors Agree to Stop Using Flatpak - Slashdot

Posted by EditorDavid

• • Re:

    Something I wish developers of major apps (or someone connected to them) would provide is a container/vm-image set up to build said software. Kind of like snap/flatpak but for source instead of binaries. But I understand the need for developers to not have to target and test innumerable distinct distros.

    • 1 hidden comment

  • Re:

    +1 When Ubuntu forced Snap into my throat, I got enough of them and their googlish behaviour. Browser stopping in the middle of me doing something. Updating whenever without my consent. What is this, Microsoft? Did I flee MS to be pushed back there? No way!
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• ›

  Am typing this on a Mint install. Still not sure how this would affect me

  • Re:

    Not in any way, Mint takes no orders from Ubuntu. Mint is doing it the other way round, they endorse Flatpak and integrate it well (even into the graphical update manager, updating flatpaks together with apt packages), while not allowing snap to be installed out of the box because of the way the Ubuntu maintainers stealthily force it onto users when these install things like Firefox or Chrome through apt from the Ubuntu package sources.

    • Re:

      >"while not allowing snap to be installed out of the box because of the way the Ubuntu maintainers stealthily force it onto users when these install things like Firefox or Chrome through apt from the Ubuntu package sources.""

      Yep, that is one of many reasons I use and recommend Mint. Ubuntu forcing things that should be native into stupid Snaps is revolting.

      It is no wonder Mint is looking past Ubuntu with LMDE. I am not using it yet, but I like they are exploring the concept https://linuxmint.com/downl [linuxmint.com]

  • Am typing this on a Mint install. Still not sure how this would affect me

    Mint rightly refuses to use Snap. Snap is at its heart proprietary and problematic [readthedocs.io]. That means this shouldn't cause you immediate problems however if more people use it everyone will all lose out overall as there gets to be less open knowledge about the infrastructure delivering Linux software. Hopefully more people will switch away from Ubuntu as they become aware of the problems and risks for the future of Snap. Linux Mint users could try running LMDE [linuxmint.com] which is Debian based Mint, though you might find that there are more problems since fewer people use it.

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    • Re:

      Switched from Ubuntu to Debian a few months ago. Sure it helps that I'm not a Linux n00b, but I'm never looking back.

      • Re:

        I moved from Linux Mint proper to Linux Mint Debian Edition to avoid snap. It still uses flatpak for some things though.

        • Re:

          >"I moved from Linux Mint proper to Linux Mint Debian Edition to avoid snap."

          That is unnecessary. Mint still installs and supports Flatpak and doesn't force any native packages to be Flatpak. And if you want to avoid any ties to Ubuntu, there is Mint LMDE https://linuxmint.com/download... [linuxmint.com] which is based directly on Debian. I don't know how well it works (it is pretty new) since I am not using it.

• There are so many well documented cases where Snaps suck. Let me cover some of them here. Slow start up. No ability to control when updates happen.. i.e. forced updates that you can only delay. No ability to control what gets pulled in with the application. Many apps with same dependencies bringing in multiple copies of the same dependencies. Maker of an app has too much control over the environment on your PC. Theming doesn't apply correctly to Snap applications. Sharing data between apps is more difficult

  • 1 hidden comment

  • Re:

    Sounds like they're following Microsoft's lead.

  • Re: App stores/Sandboxes need to die

    So basically the same as Windows. Are they, by any chance, receiving money from Microsoft?/Jk

  • Re:

    For firefox through snap, the trick to use in-memory cache with tmpfs as/tmp doesn't seem to work. had to install firefox outside of it to make all the disk writes go away.

  • Re: App stores/Sandboxes need to die

    Whatever the (de-)merits of Snaps, Flatpak, et al, they exist because consumers need a comparatively simple way to install software that goes: 1. I want it. 2. I got it.

    No consumer wants to learn apt, or even know that dependencies exist. In an era of exploding disk and cloud storage space, they don't care about multiple copies of stuff. They think, wrongly or rightly [their antivirus | no one] well keep them safe.

    Many here seem to think their user is Spock, where desktop Linux concerns are designing for Ho

    • Re:

      Mod parent up.

      Yes, Snaps and Flatpaks have their faults but they do offer a wham-bam, near-frictionless experience for users to get and try new software.

      I'm not sure where AppImage files fit into all of this, but using AppImages is also about as easy as it gets- download it (one file), set the permissions to executable, and it runs.

      • Re:

        I got Kdenlive as an AppImage. When it closes, it only sometimes releases its resources. After using Kdelive a few times, I had to kill 44 instances of kdenlive_render after Kdenlive supposedly exited. It seems that AppImage has a persistent component that has a resource leak.

        I like the idea of a complete, easy to acquire package for end-users, but no part of it should EVER persist after the program exits. That robs both the user and the operating system from the guarantee that that OS will clean up after

        • Re:

          I did a little testing with the AppImages of Rambox, Krita, MyPaint, Ksnip, and Cura. I went through opening, using, closing, reopening, etc. several times for each app.

          I didn't see any persistent resources left behind afterwards from any of those apps, but maybe this varies from app to app. Maybe Kdenlive is leaving something open or not closing something gracefully.

          • Re:

            kdenlive fires off kdenlive_render as a separate background process to render videos into the final output. I think it's meant to persist after kdenlive closes (i.e. after you finish editing).

    • Re:

      >"Whatever the (de-)merits of Snaps, Flatpak, et al, they exist because consumers need a comparatively simple way to install software that goes: 1. I want it. 2. I got it. No consumer wants to learn apt, or even know that dependencies exist"

      And they don't have to with native packages. You just install them via the appropriate distro GUI utility and it installs dependencies and updates.

      It is only a problem when you want something NOT natively available from the distro. Even then, it is usually just a m

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    • Re:

      Everything in the distro repositories should be a.deb because the repository handles the dependencies. There've never been any need for users of graphical apt front-ends to understand dependencies or know what they are.

      The proper use cake for a flatpak or snap is a third party distributing proprietary software on their website -- which should be downloaded as rarely as possible.

      Unfortunately, what Ubuntu created is a monstrosity of an "app store" where when you search for an app you get 3 different edition

    • Re:

      Why would you want to learn apt? Surely Ubuntu has a GUI app where you can search the app, click and install. And it will take care of dependencies too (BTW, did you know Windows needs dependencies resolved too? Try to run a game without the proper DirectX version, or.NET or graphic drivers).

    • Re:

      This is orthogonal to the discussion about Snap and Flatpak.
      I've been using Ubuntu derivatives since 2006. It has never been necessary for a consumer of these distros to learn apt.
      There have been user-friendly graphical software installers since before I came along, which was long before Snap and Flatpak.

  • Re:

    Don't forget disk space. Snaps take more space and they leave old versions there to it takes even more space. Configuration has its limits so only thing you can do to work around it is to create a script that uninstalls old versions and run that frequently.

• People keep screaming at Apple to provide alternate app stores, yet so called "open source" distros also tries to force their app stores as well. You're just as bad.

  • Re:

    Ideally upon install there should be a "app store choice screen" (similar to the old browser choice screen on Windows) that lists all the various app stores available for Linux that is shown on installation and give users a choice what what stores to install.
  • How is "We don't allow alternative app stores or side loading" just as bad as offering two repositories by default and allowing users to install any extra stores/repositories they wish? That makes no sense at all. They are not even remotely the same situation.

  • Re:

    It sucks that I have no choice but to use s
    Snap on my Ubuntu-brand desktop, what with that proprietary Ubuntu firmware and crypto-locked Ubuntu bootloader that will only boot Ubuntu.

  • Re:

    Here it's about Ubuntu not installing Flatpak ** by default **. You still can install it. It's also still trivial to add PPA repositories (alternate app stores) in Ubuntu, and their equivalent in all linux distros.

    If the software you want is not packaged for your distro, advanced users can also build the software from the sources. From what I get from the internet, with Apple you'd have to pay $99 a year as developer subscription. If you don't pay, your own app on your own device only works 7 days. WTF.

    • Re:

      It has NEVER been trivial to add PPA repositories. Even when the instructions are provided, it's far beyond the willpower of the vast majority of computer users.

      Trivial means, "click here" and the system does everything for you. Anything less means the installation system is still half-baked.

      • Re:

        Usually for those users, who cannot add PPA with that simple instructions, there are no need to add those PPA repositories.;)

      • Re:

        I never had a problem but the clueless probably don't NEED Linux which is not much of a desktop OS nor need it be.

        I've no trouble using it as such but I would never be cruel enough to direct a noob to it. In other news I don't suggest non-mechanics invest in a home auto shop. The self-selected will find their way.

• I've been using Linux for 23 years and Ubuntu almost since its beginning but wtf are Snap, Flatpack? Is that related to containers and others ways to waste 10 times more memory and disk space instead of sharing libraries?
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  • Re:

    Which version of ubuntu are you using?

    In order to install firefox or chromium at this point, you need to use snap. Although ubuntu has already integrated snap installer in it's apt installer, so maybe you haven't noticed.

    • In order to install firefox or chromium at this point, you need to use snap. Although ubuntu has already integrated snap installer in it's apt installer, so maybe you haven't noticed.

      Or you can use the firefox team PPA to get Firefox Beta or Nightlies, which are still provided as real packages. I'm running Devuan, and I'm just downloading the beta tarballs from the source and manually installing them.

      • 1 hidden comment

      • Re:

        >"Or you can use the firefox team PPA to get Firefox Beta or Nightlies, which are still provided as real packages."

        And you can also just download firefox from https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/fi... [mozilla.org] untar it in/opt and run it from there (or symlink the launcher in/usr/bin). The vanilla compile works fine on just about any linux system (as long as you choose the right package).

        Of course, this is not ideal in several ways, but it is an option.

    • Which version of ubuntu are you using?

      Mint.

      so maybe you haven't noticed.

      ...noticed gigabytes of wasted space for every installation? Oh, I'd have noticed. You can't help but notice. They are taking the Tux penguin and shoving a metal tube down its gullet to dump their shit like a fois gras goose.

      I encourage Ubuntu users everywhere to adopt Mint. Mint has the ease of Ubuntu, the ethics of Debian, and the common sense of Slackware. For some mind-boggling reason, they still seem to think user choice is meaningful, and have actually made it work Imagine that.

      And, BTW, the article title is 100% wrong. There was nothing about the Ubunto flavours agreeing to anything. The article was all about Ubuntu forcing them. Ubuntu, and its increasing sellout of common-sense, can suck my minty green shwanshtuker.

      • Re:

        As a big Mint fan and daily user, I would also suggest giving Mint a try.

        For me, it's what I need without a lot of stuff I don't need. It's slim and fast and pretty much everything just works from the get-go.

        I've been using it for years and really have no complaints. A few quibbles, a few annoyances, but all in all it just works.

      • Re:

        >"I encourage Ubuntu users everywhere to adopt Mint. Mint has the ease of Ubuntu, the ethics of Debian, and the common sense of Slackware. For some mind-boggling reason, they still seem to think user choice is meaningful, and have actually made it work Imagine that."

        I couldn't agree more. And mod up you should be.

        I don't know why anyone would choose to use Ubuntu for a desktop when Mint has been available for years and years and has proven over and over again to be reliable, easy, and completely user-no

        • Re:

          My distro progression was Redhat, Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Debian. I switched from Redhat to Debian for apt, from Debian to Ubuntu for better hardware support, from Ubuntu to Mint because Ubuntu seemed to have lost its way and Mint seemed to have the original Ubuntu philosophy, and from Mint back to Debian because I still prefer KDE and it felt like a second class citizen in Mint. But I would still recommend Mint if someone asked me for a recommendation for their first Linux box.

    • Not True, AND You Can Completely Remove Snap

      I did this. Wasting resources and no control over the applications I install does not sit well with me.
      https://www.debugpoint.com/rem... [debugpoint.com]

  • Re: Huh?

    Flatpaks can share libraries.

    I don't really use any of them except the steam Flatpak though. Deb/rpm is much better.

  • Re:

    The great thing about memory and diskspace is they are there to be wasted, unless you're running a small IoT box or a potato, in which case WTF did you install Ubuntu.

    In my 2 decades of using Linux and helping other people use Linux, about one of the few ways that I have seen many users truly f-up their system is an attempt to install some updated software, not "blessed" by their distribution maintainer (which is to say the update is held back because other libraries aren't up to date), add a bunch of custo

    • by blackomegax ( 807080 ) on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:47PM (#63323474) Journal

      > The great thing about memory and diskspace is they are there to be wasted,
      
      This kind of retread thinking is why we have 32GB ram systems that barely handle Chrome but the Apollo guidance computer could go to the freaking moon with 4KB ram.
      
      OPTIMIZE YOUR FUCKING CODE.

      • Re:

        I don't remember the last time I wanted mod points so badly to upvote a post to the stratosphere.

        • Re:

          You like upvoting irrelevant and off topic posts that don't address the fact that software exists to solve problems or provide functionality?

          Maybe if you ran Lynx and gave up using a modern computer in any way you'll have some mod points too. Otherwise we could just mod you -1 hypocrite?

          What functionality do you want to give up today?

      • Re:

        Your facetiousness aside (Chrome even for heavy users is fine on 8GB systems), you're missing the point. We have 32GB of RAM systems because 32GB of RAM isn't expensive. If you want to use your computer like a text based terminal, more power to you. The rest of the world expects more.

        Also your comment laughably off topic. Nothing here is about lack of optimisation. Not even your comment about Chrome. The reason for high RAM use on Chrome (or indeed *every* modern browser) is the adoption of an insanely comp

        • Re:

          Windows XP ran a GUI and some pretty heavy apps with just 256MB. We had sandboxing back then too.
          
          try again.

  • Re:

    Kinda sorta.

    Their distinguishing feature is that they're complete, executable blobs with a delicious software filling containing all of the stuff needed to run, all baked inside.

    That exhausts my knowledge on the subject, even though I do use Flatpaks (like GIMP) and AppImages, which I also don't know much about other than that they're also executable blobs with all the stuff needed to run baked inside.

• While I understand the reasoning behind snap, it's still reminiscent of the bad old days under Windows. Anyway, having multiple install systems (apt/snap) on a system is a problem. Obviously, having three would be even worse.

  Let's get rid of Flatpak *and* snap. There should only be one system.

  • Re:

    I'm predicting an XKCD link in 3....2....1..

  • Re:

    I agree 100% with your sentiment.

    But actually, Flatpak/snap are _different_ install systems than apt/rpm and the like.

    Flatpack and Snap are similar to the Windows/Mac App store. the applications are sandboxed (among other things), so they do not trample on each other.

    Meanwhile, old style package managers (like apt ot rpm) are similar to downloading the installer in Windows and Mac.

    So, a distro needs one of each one for the old style and one for the new. Just like windows and mac each has one app store, buyt

  • Re:

    On one hand, I agree with you, and I try to use system libraries for everything.

    On the other hand, I want to run software that doesn't really accommodate that, so I have to use something.

    Snap seems like the worst, so I removed it when I was running Ubuntu.

    Flatpak seems like the least of evils to me, in that it has the kind of added security you get with snap but also... isn't snap. AppImages are smaller, but don't share libraries, so they're not smaller in memory. I have plenty of disk space, but my RAM is

    • Re:

      >"Flatpak seems like the least of evils to me"

      Agreed.

      I will use native packages always when possible. The only time I turn to something like Flatpak is if I really need something cutting edge. And it is rare.

      • Re: Just *one* please

        Flatpak is more or less a good solution looking for a problem.

        Having said that, I'm using it almost exclusively, but on a new "breed" of Linux distro: the ostree-based "immutable base system" kind, like Fedora Silverblue, for instance. That's where flatpak really shines, together with projects like Container-ToolBX.

        I was a Debian user for almost two decades (since version 2), but I really enjoy being up to date with my packages for once. For instance, I have a native python 3.11 now, with a few useful featu

  • Re: Just *one* please

    i like flatpak for apps i do not trust. it has a lot less overhead than using a virtual machine. i only use it for apps i do not trust and use flatseal to control access. if there is a better solution please let me know.

• • Re:

    "It would be a shame if you lost access to the Ubuntu provided ecosystem by choosing to install the flatpak solution on your flavor" was effectively what Canonical said. While the flavors may put on a smile in public about the changes as they do not wish to offend Canonical, the flavors were given no real choice in the matter.

  • Re:

    They use the Ubuntu name, so they have to abide by certain rules around that usage.

    Mint which uses Ubuntu along with many others are not a part of this discussion. This is just about the Ubuntu Flavors.

• Snap is a nightmare, and if you need just one thing about it, know that it tries to force you to update apps four times a day. You can't disable updates. If you give a use-case as to why you want this, the answer is "why would you want this?" and the feature request is closed. So it's no surprise that Ubuntu embraces it and goes out of their way to stop the competition.

• I'm using KDE-neon, and am very concerned over this. I need Zoom for something, and that's just not being updated in the snap repository. Somebody put a version in there a looooooong time ago, and it was never updated. Lo and behold: the version has some unpatched, critical vulnerabilities. I simply refuse to use the snap version.

  I also read the announcement. It's a complete lie. Later on the lie is made worse by a dev who claims they can't support flatpak. Huh? Flatpak is open source, its repository [github.com] is publicly available, and people from canonical can contribute to it, if they so desire. If they want to get involved with flathub, they would probably be welcomed with open arms. But nooooo, they want to do their power grab. Is the snap package manager or runtime open source? No. Can the community contribute to them? No. It's all about power grab, nothing less.

  • Ubuntu's entire history is taking Debian and then forcing some proprietary shit on top of it.

    Unity, upstart, ufw - so many half-working things that were abandoned.

    I am neither surprised, offended nor affected.

    • Re:

      None of Ubuntu's client-side software is proprietary. Their One client, Upstart, Unity, UFW, etc are all open source.

      • Re:

        >"None of Ubuntu's client-side software is proprietary. Their One client, Upstart, Unity, UFW, etc are all open source."

        Riiiiiight.

        Just like Chromium is "open source."
        Except nobody can really contribute to it except at Google's determination and utter control. Make no mistake, anything based on Chromium (AKA any browser that is not Firefox) is locked into Google's control.

        So is just open source and then there is really open source- open source open to and driven by the community while also adhering to o

        • Re:

          pssst Free Software pssst

          All "open source" means is that you can see the sources, period. It means literally nothing else. "Open" in computing means documented and interoperable, it also means literally nothing else. This is why we need Free Software, it comes with guarantees that you can actually use it.

          • Re:

            >"pssst Free Software pssst"

            Yeah, but I am not a fan of that term either. The vast majority of people just think it means without monetary price.

            I kinda wish there were a new term that covered only things that are Free, Open Source, Open Standards, and Open Development. Like "Liberty Source" or "Liberty Software" or whatnot.

    • Re:

      Actually you're showing examples of things where Ubuntu didn't *want* to go down the proprietary path, but had a problem that needed to solve, and then proceeded to abandon their proprietary way as soon as some open source / universal way presented itself.

      Unity was born out of a universal hatred in the Linux world for Gnome 3 and was fully functional.
      Upstart was just one of 15 different attempts by various distros and programmers to replace SysVinit, and work was abandoned only when something "better" becam

  • Re:

    1. If you're using KDE neon then you probably are not affected at all. KDE neon isn't an Ubuntu community edition.

    2. Even if KDE neon doesn't ship with Flatpak enabled by default it takes three clicks to add Flatpak support. This will take maybe 30 seconds out of your day to add Flatpak to any community edition of Ubuntu.

  • Re:

    Distrobox is your friend,

    https://distrobox.privatedns.o... [privatedns.org]

    Allows your to run another distrobo in terminal and export apps from that distro to the host OS.

    So for instance you can use the Arch user repository which has the latest version on zoom.

  • Re:

    Great news! IME the audio doesn't work right in the flatpak version of Zoom on Ubuntu. It works less than half the time, so you don't want to run it anyway. Next time I need zoom I'm just going to run the windows version in a VM, the Linux version is a bad joke.

• From a user experience, compatibility and performance point of view both flatpack and snaps suck.
  Yes I understand that it frees packagers from local dependencies however the "cure" is many times worse. For example if I secure a system using something like fapolicyd stuff like this stops working.
  If you want to be nice source packages are peachy but the whole flatpacksnap experience is like being touched up by a priest. ie an absolute betrayal of trust, but on further examination the motives are pretty clear.

• • Re:

    That's like saying - see, they have no consensus in Europe - big problem, so lets keep our house like in Russia, where we have no gas, no rights, no drivable roads and no wc's.

• I'm not intrinsically against corporate involvement with Linux - when you look at stuff like the kernel's changelog, it's quite obvious their paid developers are doing a whole lot of the work in moving Linux forward and keeping it secure. But it's also true that the corporate mindset leads to user-hostile decisions, both on a smaller scale (e.g. this move) and larger (e.g. the gutting of CentOS).

• Flatpak is a huge data storage hog. May be fine if you have gigabytes and gigabytes to burn, but otherwise avoid it.

  • Re:

    I want HandBrake 1.6, which introduces hardware encoding and is several hundred percent faster. The repos I'm using only have 1.5 and 1.6 is only available as a Flatpak.

    Spent about two hours in hell to get it running. The free space on / went from 2GB to around 600MB! It had to download 300MB of Gnome dependencies to run a 60MB application.

    Anyways, after I got it installed it couldn't scan all the titles on a DVD.

    So I'm back on 1.5. What a shitshow.

• AppImage is the way to go, anyway.

• Devuan has done the work of figuring out how to function gracefully without systemd. The installer lacks niceties which Ubuntu has, like root on encrypted ZFS (I worked it out in a couple hours from some other howtos, starting with not knowing anything useful about ZFS as Ubuntu had handled it for me) but it's a mostly enjoyable experience using it these days. I'm using pipewire for audio, too, it replaces both pulseaudio and JACK and I've tested both. I have the latest nvidia manually installed, in order t

• Too bad Snap doesn't get past X Windows security.

  I have to do an "xhost +" to get any X Windows Snap app to actually start.

  WTF, Canonical?

  • Re:

    What's X Windows? Canonical's customers would like to know. Sounds like some outdated thing that Canonical supported before making Wayland default.

    That's WTF.

    • Re:

      nvidia users would like to know what the X windowing system is, as nvidia still has issues with wayland.

• I tried installing an app as a snap (I think it was kdenlive), and instead of using my home directory, it insisted on saving my project files in some strange looking folders that looked like some kind of chroot jail. I have since installed the appimage, and it works just fine. I also installed the appimage of Audacity with no problems. I haven't tried a flatpak yet but it looks like I'm going to have to since KiCad doesn't have an appimage version.

  So my scorecard is:
  Appimage: 2
  Snap: -1
  Flatpak: no score yet

• Ever since Canonical opted to make Firefox available only through snap, I have been uninstalling snapd altogether after I upgrade.
  
  $ sudo apt purge snapd
  

  Then I add the Mozilla Team PPA to my repos, and install Firefox that way.

  I am still on Xubuntu 20.04 LTS, and the above definitely works: no more snap crap.
  Also tried it on 22.04 LTS server, and snapd can be removed too without issues.

• I apt still the default engine for ubuntu?

  I've been a debian user since forever, but UB has its charms.

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  • Re:

    >"I've been a debian user since forever, but UB has its charms."

    No, Ubuntu doesn't have it's charms. Mint does.

    But for you, see this particular version of Mint:
    https://www.linuxmint.com/down... [linuxmint.com]

• You invent your own unique packaging method, with all the features you never learned to use in the more popular, already available packaging and deployment systems. We just saw this with flatpacks, and Red Hat just tried it with "modularity" for RPMs, both of which have been discarded.

• Wake up everyone. The PURPOSE of software is to monopolize you. To OWN you.
  
  Here's an example you may recall. Everyone went gaga over cell phones, then music publishers said I want to get to those people, then Apple said we'll get your music to market, then... PRESTO... Apple OWNED both the customers and publishers. Everyone's been crying foul ever since, Except for all the chumps listening to their 99cent tunes on their cell phones. Do you get it now?
  
  Let me be blunter: Snap, Flatpak, etc, they are just OWNI