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No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

 1 year ago
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No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

[Posted February 22, 2023 by corbet]
The Ubuntu Flavors offerings (Kubuntu and the like) have decided that the way to improve the user experience is to put more emphasis on the Snap package format.
Going forward, the Flatpak package as well as the packages to integrate Flatpak into the respective software center will no longer be installed by default in the next release due in April 2023, Lunar Lobster. Users who have used Flatpak will not be affected on upgrade, as flavors are including a special migration that takes this into account. Those who haven’t interacted with Flatpak will be presented with software from the Ubuntu repositories and the Snap Store.
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No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 15:26 UTC (Wed) by pbryan (subscriber, #3438) [Link]

This seems to parallel a recent change by Microsoft to discourage the installation of Chrome to keep you using the Edge browser instead.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 7:34 UTC (Thu) by WolfWings (subscriber, #56790) [Link]

Perhaps comically, I'm using Edge on two of my Linux machines instead of Chrome or Firefox.

Once you turn off the hyper-noisy default new-tab page it's actually quite good on tablets, especially with the sidebar + vertical tabs so most navigation and quick access is on the sides where you're already holding a tablet.

I still use Chrome on my desktops/laptops, but I've certainly found a niche where I prefer Edge even on Linux.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 11:23 UTC (Thu) by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497) [Link]

Recent change? A few years back I tried to install Chrome in a Windows VM, couldn't figure out how to get around Microsoft's roadblocks, and installed Firefox instead.

(These days I use Firefox by choice, rather than as a fallback.)

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 17:12 UTC (Wed) by tchernobog (subscriber, #73595) [Link]

I don't like the lock-in coming from snaps. There's only one application store, Canonical's. The source code to run your own server is not open source.

Plus, I personally find snaps very slow and poorly packaged compared to the corresponding flatpak alternatives. But that might just be me.

Of course, this is just "the default", you can still install flatpak. I just hope it stays that way.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 18:58 UTC (Wed) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link]

ubuntu why decrease your attractiveness?

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 21:33 UTC (Wed) by kilobyte (subscriber, #108024) [Link]

Removing Flatpak is a welcome change. Now please remove Snap too.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 22:34 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> Removing Flatpak is a welcome change. Now please remove Snap too.

Just in case, you missed it, the whole reason why Canonical dropped Flatpak is to focus on Snap and they ship Snap packages by default. So removing Snap is rather unlikely unless and until it completes fails.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 7:18 UTC (Thu) by oldtomas (guest, #72579) [Link]

I'd assume kilobyte didn't miss it.

I'm applying a mélange of Poe's Law and Hanlon's razor: "never attribute to stupidity what can be explained by irony".

That said, I concur in kilobyte's feelings. To put it in other words: "Oh, snap! No Flatpaks!". One reason more to steer clear of Ubuntu.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 23:28 UTC (Wed) by jhoblitt (subscriber, #77733) [Link]

Because flatpak is a threat to a walled garden controlled by... Drum roll please...

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 19:21 UTC (Wed) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]

I use standard Ubuntu, not a flavor, so this doesn't change anything for me.

I have no problem using snap if it packages what I want: for example there's no snap for the latest GNOME Evolution so I install the flatpak and it works fine.

On the other hand, the flatpak version of Emacs is quite useless for me so I use the snap to get the latest version and it works great.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 22, 2023 19:40 UTC (Wed) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link]

I'm a Fedora user... and I have to admit that I was surprised that Flatpak was included by default in the Ubuntu Flavors. I mean, Fedora doesn't include Snap in any of their releases, spins, or labs that I'm aware of.

I don't really fault Ubuntu for removing flatpak by default and have to wonder why it was added in the first place. They have an agenda with the snap packaging system that they develop and promote... and like already mentioned, users can manually install flatpak easily if desired.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 1:02 UTC (Thu) by WolfWings (subscriber, #56790) [Link]

Nobody but Ubuntu includes snaps, because it's an Ubuntu-only thing by design, up to and including the only central repo/storefront/walled garden is controlled 100% by Canonical.

So nobody bothers versus the wide-open nature (by comparison if nothing else) of Flatpaks.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 2:24 UTC (Thu) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link]

I know that. I'm a Fedora user and I use (some) flatpaks... mostly on a few EL Linux systems that have much older graphical programs. The people you should be trying to convince is Canonical... but I'm guessing they aren't interested.

Supposedly there is an open source implementation of the snap backend but it is not current compared to what Canonical is actually running. Not trying to be an apologist for Canonical, just trying to make sure the info is somewhat fair and balanced. :)

While flatpak is certainly more open, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't much adoption with regards to third-parties setting up their own flatpak repositories. Flathub appears to be the primary place... and I'm pretty sure it has some connection with Fedora and/or Red Hat... whether that be in hosting funding and/or packager pool. It is kinda hard to find specifics.

One key difference is that snaps also do cli packages and Flatpak is mainly for GUI applications only. I also heard that Canonical has replaced some system packages with snaps... so snap is basically a requirement on Ubuntu as well as distributions that derive from Ubuntu who don't put in how much ever effort is required to excise it out. Mint has taken that effort, after butting heads with Canonical a few times, but I'm not sure about the rest of the Ubuntu downstream.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 7:44 UTC (Thu) by WolfWings (subscriber, #56790) [Link]

That's the main goal currently for flats is packaging graphical and 32-bit apps into self-contained systems that don't rely on the underlying OS for support. Honestly I think that's one of the largest benefactors is being able to have a thin 'shim' layer just to allow 32-bit libraries to call their 64-bit cousins and then apps that require that 32-bit support such as Steam just get boxed right up. It's sped along the common removal of multi-lib in some distros further afield.

Most command-line and daemon software already packages and releases things as .deb's and .rpm's since that covers the majority out there so you're right, there hasn't been much move towards flats since it hasn't really been as useful.

Either solution is really just a workaround for the tried-and-true concept of backporting distro's in the end really, allowing some components to more readily be pushed to be fully updated without having to force-feed rolling-distro for the core system libraries and tooling.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 7:49 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

> Nobody but Ubuntu includes snaps

That is false. Debian has snaps. Not by default of course.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 9:57 UTC (Thu) by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039) [Link]

Last time I installed it Manjaro included both Flatpak and Snap by default.

Snap refresh behaviour is really strange.

Posted Feb 22, 2023 22:55 UTC (Wed) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link]

I don't know if I'm missing something, but whenever there's an update to the Firefox snap that's installed on my Jammy desktop I have to shut down the running instance of Firefox before I can even start the download of the updated snap? So it doesn't seem like there's even a way to get snapd (or whatever is going on underneath the user interface to the system) to download a refresh without directly impacting the running system, let alone doing the downloads in the background automatically.

For some stuff I doubt that's much an issue - there's a whole bunch of things I'd consider fundamental tools that are now available as snaps, most of which will exist as short-lived processes where that issue is pretty minimal. But for something like a browser that's a major constraint - taking it down /before/ being able to even initiate the update, which is generally a sizable download, is just insane. If this is an architectural constraint with snaps then it's a massive indictment of the design; if it's just an implementation detail (which seems likely) then it's still a massive indictment of a system that seems to be considered "production ready".

If anyone knows of a way to fix this I'd greatly appreciate hearing about it (without just moving away from snap entirely, because I can't see how to do that with Firefox and it's probably not long-term viable other than moving to a different distro entirely, which is difficult for me due to work requirements).

Snap refresh behaviour is really strange.

Posted Feb 23, 2023 3:57 UTC (Thu) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

This is a constant papercut for me too, though so far I haven't quite overcome the inertia to switch to something else. Mozilla does also maintain first-party distributions of Firefox as a flatpak or as a plain old self-updating binary, though, so I'm not anticipating switching distros over it.

Random question: does anyone know whether flatpak solves this?

Snap refresh behaviour is really strange.

Posted Feb 23, 2023 6:37 UTC (Thu) by tchernobog (subscriber, #73595) [Link]

As a Firefox as flatpak user, it does.

You might still get the "Your browser has been updated" message when opening a new tab, though, and need to reload it.

Snap refresh behaviour is really strange.

Posted Feb 23, 2023 4:24 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

With the old apt/deb version of firefox: The browser will randomly say "Firefox has been updated. To continue you must restart your session." with a restart button and you can't continue browsing until you click that.

With snap: it tells you there is an update ready. I can ignore it for days if I so choose. When I want to update I do "pkill -f firefox; sudo snap refresh" and restart firefox after it's done (a couple of minutes).

Personally it seems to me that the latter is less intrusive?

Snap refresh behaviour is really strange.

Posted Feb 23, 2023 6:25 UTC (Thu) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link]

They're both irritating, but in the case of the snap refresh I have to wait on the download and setup of the new package, whereas with the old way the new code is already installed and comes up immediately after the restart. Also, with the package install it's generally picked up by regular updates, which don't normally need any manual intervention (and when it /is/ needed it's generally just telling the gui updater it can run now) - there doesn't appear to be any equivalent for snaps that I can see. And finally, the Firefox updates are almost always pretty big - they can take a minute or two to download on my home connection, which means the refresh process takes several minutes just to get to the point of being able to start Firefox back up.

A rather more irritating scenario (which is irritatingly common for me) is where my laptop fails to resume from suspend and needs rebooting - with the package installation I'd generally have nothing extra to do in order to run the updated version, whereas with the snap I need to manually do the refresh before bringing up Firefox (and remember that the update is available before starting Firefox after the reboot). And this happens pretty regularly for me thanks to some dodgy hardware . . .

If the snap refresh could happen in the background I wouldn't care that much; even if it was only just downloading all the files it needed and /then/ telling me I needed to restart Firefox it'd be an improvement - it's not like this is rocket science, just download the new files to a temporary location in the background. And it should be possible to watch the mount point to see when I've shut down Firefox, so that it can automatically handle the refresh - download the update in the background, notify me that I need to restart Firefox because of an update, and trigger the final refresh once the old process is dead.

I can understand why they're pushing for snaps - it allows them to build one version of things like Firefox for all supported releases, which reduces their maintenance burden significantly. But it's so very klunky, for no real reason.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 2:01 UTC (Thu) by pawel44 (guest, #162008) [Link]

Snaps are another sub optimal solution promoted by Canonical. For example: Firefox (snap) can hang entire system when playing with React. Eclipse never launched. In contrary I never had problems with Flatpak.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 7:52 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

> Firefox (snap) can hang entire system

This looks like a kernel bug to me.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 6:24 UTC (Thu) by highvoltage (subscriber, #57465) [Link]

"The Ubuntu Flavors offerings (Kubuntu and the like) have decided"... look, we know how this works by now, it was decided /for/ them, not /by/ them. Two months ago, Xubuntu added Flatpak to their default install for the upcoming 23.04 release. Obviously Canonical would have none of this.

No more Flatpak (by default) in Ubuntu Flavors

Posted Feb 23, 2023 10:53 UTC (Thu) by funderburg (subscriber, #3750) [Link]

Flatpak's or Snaps - both are the first I remove and disable on any server I build. Ubuntu can beat that dead horse until it turns into soil but it's never going to work.

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