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Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

 1 year ago
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Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

[Posted September 28, 2022 by corbet]
The backers of the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project, which was the subject of an intense discussion at the GNU Tools Cauldron, have finally posted their plans publicly.
Linux Foundation IT services plans for the GNU Toolchain include Git repositories, mailing lists, issue tracking, web sites, and CI/CD, implemented with strong authentication, attestation, and security posture. Utilizing the experience and infrastructure of the LF IT team that is already used by the Linux kernel community will provide the most effective solution and best experience for the GNU Toolchain developer community.
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Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 14:31 UTC (Wed) by mtaht (subscriber, #11087) [Link]

This definitely feels like a corporate takeover attempt.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 14:44 UTC (Wed) by q_q_p_p (subscriber, #131113) [Link]

Yeah, especially that LF already doesn't represent linux community interests.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 14:44 UTC (Wed) by tchernobog (subscriber, #73595) [Link]

Well, I hope you're not running a Linux kernel if you're so mistrustful, since these are the same guys that make kernel.org work.

I rather think these are people with time and means to ensure the reliability needed by a lot of critical infrastructure for the GNU project.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 14:58 UTC (Wed) by kilobyte (subscriber, #108024) [Link]

It's about FSF (gnu.org) vs "GNU Assembly" (gnu.tools); the latter revealed themselves at the time of the anti-RMS signature-gathering attack letter.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 15:33 UTC (Wed) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link]

Clearly not; GCC maintainers are working with the SFC

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 18:04 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]

There are respected GCC maintainers in both camps, both proposals seem to have at least some approval from the FSF, and the only sad part is how vitriolic the discussion became. I hope that these divisions can be healed; it seems to me that both the SFC and the GTI proposals are workable and neither is a violation of free software principles. None of this has anything to do with past controversies about RMS.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 19:57 UTC (Wed) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link]

Fancy domain, no names, questionable content. It looks like another from Pocock's harassment circle (next to debian.day, fsf.community, debian.community etc.)

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 20:47 UTC (Wed) by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452) [Link]

> no names

Not true.

There's a "People" <https://gnu.tools/en/people/> link in the navigation bar and basically every single word on that site has a real name attached to it in the site's source repository <https://git.gnu.tools/git/gnu-tools-website> linked from the footer.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 21:26 UTC (Wed) by dullfire (subscriber, #111432) [Link]

Kind of surprising that apparently that horse was beat to death only about a year and a half ago (if the sites git logs are to be believed).

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 29, 2022 7:20 UTC (Thu) by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452) [Link]

That is not the sort of thing you can infer from a git log from a static web site, is it?

The date you picked is pretty much when it was created.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 29, 2022 5:39 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

pocock surely names names.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 17:10 UTC (Wed) by mdolan (subscriber, #104340) [Link]

To clarify for those who did not read the full post that was linked to, GNU toolchain project leads asked for Konstantin and his team at the LF who run kernel.org to provide support for the GNU toolchain community. After checking with the FSF Executive Director (at the time) for permission, we responded to the maintainers and said the LF could provide infrastructure and support from Konstantin's team. This is not an LF takeover over any GNU project, not a scheme to require GNU maintainers to use any non-free software tool (all of kernel.org's infrastructure is free software), or any other conspiracy the SFC is intentionally floating around out there. As was already stated - this is the same team (and build infrastructure) that helps ensure you get Linux kernel releases from kernel.org. And to reiterate, this plan was requested by GNU toolchain maintainers. We support project maintainers, and we don't say no to maintainers asking for help.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 18:58 UTC (Wed) by mtaht (subscriber, #11087) [Link]

I had actually read the full post and there was certain language that stuck in my craw. I'm over it now, and I'm perfectly willing to sit this one out and let other contributors debate and decide.

One of my concerns is actually technical. I've been concerned about the increasing amount of centralization and monoculture and the cloud, especially in an age where a new spectre like attack is discovered every year. This paper has been on my mind, a lot: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_...

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 19:54 UTC (Wed) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link]

> all of kernel.org's infrastructure is free software

No it isn't. http://vger.kernel.org/ says it running Majordomo which is not free software according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majordomo_(software). 2 links from that page is a link to a small proprietary perl program it is running as a service. I assume is also running on a server with a nonfree BIOS, maybe a BMC or similar system.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 20:02 UTC (Wed) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link]

Fixing the link: Majordomo wikipedia

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 20:14 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

You really should do a little more research.

Majordomo 2 (ie what anyone is actually using as the original majordomo hasn't seen a release in over two decades) looks like it uses a variation of the BSD-style license with a more extensive advertising clause.

Here's an online copy: https://github.com/millert/majordomo/blob/master/LICENSE

As for picking nits with servers running non-free BIOSes.. Their internet connection (and everything between them and your premises) also runs on non-free firmware. I wish you the best of luck communicating with nobody.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 20:14 UTC (Wed) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]

We (sourceware maintainers) recognize Konstantin's great work, and we'd like to find a mutually agreeable way to work with his team. We'd like to discuss the details on the sourceware overseers list. This can be coordinated with SFC, as we're working to become a member project there.

BTW, I haven't seen any evidence of conspiracy theories. The LF involvement was kept secret for a long period of time, and details provided to sourceware maintainers (and the wider communities of sourceware's guest projects) were hazy. It also didn't help that communication with the LF apparently had to be done through a proprietary groups.io server and not having a free software video platform available. But the more public the plans are, the less opportunity for speculation and misunderstandings.

I've worked with SFC on a number of different things over the years; they just aren't the kind of people that spread conspiracy theories.

They have been really helpful to the sourceware community in the recent discussions:

https://sourceware.org/pipermail/overseers/2022q3/018867....
https://sourceware.org/pipermail/overseers/2022q3/018824....
https://sourceware.org/pipermail/overseers/2022q3/018894....

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 20:34 UTC (Wed) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link]

I did not get the impression that the software freedom conservancy is originating any conspiracy theories.

I have seen people who favor the sfc plan express that the mode of secret preparation feels like a conspiracy, sometimes in a hostile way.

I just think if you believe that is the source of the view, you should address it directly, and otherwise probably leave it alone.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 21:00 UTC (Wed) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

> or any other conspiracy the SFC is intentionally floating around out there

This kind of baseless accusation has no place here. Random uninformed comments do not constitute a conspiracy against you.

The team maintaining kernel.org is certainly a group of folks whose skill and integrity are well-established and respected.

Concrete questions to aid in transparency: are LF's services (specifically, the services of that team) tied to any other aspect of a relationship with LF, or could LF's services be provided to a project that maintains its funds and other assets elsewhere?

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 22:02 UTC (Wed) by zoe (subscriber, #161219) [Link]

The FSF supports GNU projects getting additional resources from a variety of places. We have been thankful to RedHat for providing resources, and to any other organization offering support for infrastructure. This proposal for the GNU toolchain infrastructure project seems to be much more involved than that, such as putting together a new governing board.

The issue at hand is how to move forward with important parts of the GNU Project. This decision should be made for the sake of the GNU Project's goal of liberating users and its moral principles of freedom and community. More discussion is needed on the details of this proposal, as well as transparency as to all the proposed arrangements.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 22:15 UTC (Wed) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

Yes. Looking forward to hearing more from FSF. When possible.

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 22:25 UTC (Wed) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

LF provides services for the Linux kernel via a project-specific domain (kernel.org). This could be done for any GNU tools that receive similar services - the domain could be something.gnu.org. That should remove worries of a "takeover".

Announcing the GNU Toolchain Infrastructure Project

Posted Sep 28, 2022 23:48 UTC (Wed) by jsm28 (subscriber, #104141) [Link]

The slides and recording from the first GTI TAC meeting have now been published: https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/gti-tac/2022-08-24.html

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