Apple Warns Suppliers To Follow China Rules on 'Taiwan' Labeling - Slashdot
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Apple Warns Suppliers To Follow China Rules on 'Taiwan' Labeling
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The timing is sensitive for Apple, as its suppliers are preparing components that will go into its next iPhones and other new products set to launch this autumn. Using the phrase "Made in Taiwan" on any import declaration forms, documents or cartons could cause shipments to be held and checked by Chinese customs, the sources added. Penalties for violating such a rule is a fine of up to 4,000 yuan ($592) or, in the worst-case scenario, the shipment being rejected, one of the sources said.
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China's economy is collapsing. Real estate values are plummeting in China, banks are running short on funds and having to be guarded by tanks.
Why don't we just implement 15-20% tariffs on everything imported from China or containing any Chinese components and end them? Our businesses need to accept that they can't get in bed with every despot on the planet to exploit cheap labor.
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as ronald regan discovered in the 80’s, tariffs don’t really work like that. back then, american companies simply increased the price of their products.
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Yep. What you are describing is known as a "trade war" [investopedia.com], and in a trade war pretty much everybody loses. But it would hurt us more than it hurts China. China would just continue to trade with everybody else in the world: they wouldn't get hurt that badly if they lose the US market.
And if we initiated a trade war against every country we disagreed with, we would very quickly stop trading with pretty much everybody in the world.
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There are hundreds of thousands of people employed in the US because of what Reagan did on behalf of the UAW. Toyota alone employs nearly half a million US workers in US factories and has been doing so since the 80's as a direct result of Reagan. You can read about the results of Reagan's trade work here [motorbiscuit.com].
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You can read about the results of Reagan's trade work here [motorbiscuit.com].
Your link doesn't even mention Reagan.
Most of it is about the 2000s.-
From the linked article:
What happened 35 years ago?
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Reagan negotiated voluntary limits on Japanese auto and motorcycle imports early in his administration. Later Congress established a tariff regime based on domestic content percentages; the more domestic content the lower the tariffs. The result of this pressure was by the late 80's (35 years ago is 1987) foreign auto manufacturers were building plants in the US which still operate today. Ironically a Toyota Camry is more American than a Ford Mustang. [fraserinstitute.org] Here is a CBO document [cbo.gov] from 1981 that documents the
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While it might be collapsing, it is still a huge economy that is heavily intertwined with the US and US companies. Companies that 'play ball' have a significant economic advantage in the US consumer goods space compared to ones that do not.
Thing is, it isn't just labor. Infrastructure, supply chains, and manufacturing engineering talent are huge factors too.-
Soft power is also a limited resource. Used wisely (Iran nuclear deal, Russian sanctions) you can get a lot of international support and have a big impact. If not the US is going it alone and the impacts are relatively limited.
If China invades Taiwan then massive sanctions from multiple countries might be on the table, but without a real precipitating incident there's no reason for sanctions now.
Not to mention the sanctions in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine are already hurting. I don't think you'l
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I'm with you 100%, but understand that the cheap labor component is only part of the equation and possibly not the biggest part. We use China to get around regulatory issues on two fronts: labor and environment. The pollution side-effect of all the crap that we have made over there is absorbed by the Pacific and we don't have to deal with it here. Ultimately, we're going to have to pay more for stuff to have it made here and deal with those issues properly. At this point, it's a national security issue
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unfortunately, this "all the pollution is in south-east asia and not here" argument has been debunked thoroughly in the last 50 or so years.
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Play these games and end up ever more in hock to what China wants. Look at the problems Germany has as it made itself too dependant on gas from Russia.
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The US is already in hock to what China wants. Remember, less than a year ago, Americans were talking about how they couldn't survive and their lives were ruined because US ports weren't able to keep up with record imports from China. Mostly luxury goods and cheap trinkets. Nothing that's really a necessity like heating gas. It seems at least some people would sell their grandmothers for a plastic lawn chair.
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China's economy is collapsing.
According to this: [cnn.com]
and this: [cnn.com]
China's economy is still growing in spite of their drastic no-Covid policies. Slower growth is not an economic collapse.
Now, if you had been making a prediction instead of stating a "fact", you might be right, or might be wrong. Similar if you had specific arguments about the validity of the statistics, rather than just a rant about how to "end them", and in a way that would hurt the US more than China. -
Because it's a breach under WTO rules to do so. And because it would breach international law by breaking an existing trade agreement with China.
While you may like a world without China, it may not be so fun to be labelled pariah number 2. There are are international economic repercussions to acting like a dick on the world stage.
What despot? I remind you that it was USA policy to enhance trade relations with China (and Russia). The government literally encouraged businesses to do so. Are you saying your bu
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Tariffs are a tax your citizens pay yourself. You're counting on China to cut prices to make up for those tariffs. That probably won't happen, since their gov't is just as likely to play hardball as you are, and their gov't calls the shots, not their businesses.
As for getting into bed with every despot, did you miss the last 200+ years of US history? That's kind of our thing. We'd need massive changes to our political systems to fix that. We can barely keep our gov'ts from meddling in Mexico & South -
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Ah.. ha.. that is an interesting alternative reality you live in there.
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Probably the same crowd who told me France's economy was on the imminent edge of collapse every year, for the past 35 years.
China is hitting some rough spots for sure, the easy growth and easy money era is over for them and they will have to transition some sectors. They are still the #2 economy in the world and the global manufacturing hub for good reason.
There is opportunity for other nations to now both bolster domestic production and get some better conditions out of operating in China but the idea tha
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Why don't we try building factories in Africa or somewhere where you can still get cheap labor but without all of this kowtowing nonsense?
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It takes decades to build up all the infrastructure that China has. You can build a new factory, but then you need to build the factories that build all the parts you use, and then you have to build the processing plants to create the raw materials used in the factories. And then the mines that produce the ore are still in China. When you pull just one piece out, you find that you have to ship all the other pieces from China, and you've just made the problem worse. You have to look at the whole production chain and move the whole thing. You can do this for simpler products first, and then that provides a basis for more advanced products. As labor costs in China have gone up, this has been happening with factories moving to other countries in the region where shipping parts isn't as slow and expensive.
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the longest journey begins with a single step.- Patanjali
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And companies have been exploring this for a while now, but as pointed out, it is a long journey.
A huge problem though is that countries and companies are kinda hoping 'someone else' will do it first. The companies that really go out there and start building that infrastructure will have higher production costs and fall behind in the market compared to companies that do not. That tends to be one of the classic problems with capitalism and long term development, everyone has an economic incentive for som-
Well, you forget one of the obvious points: get the taxpayer to fund it. The laws of supply and demand mean that scarcity of commodities in demand mean prices rise, so companies make money and they've made a lot off of China and especially the tensions with Taiwan. In the case of China, there should be an immediate 20%+ tariff on everything imported and a review on all exports to China and review if those shouldn't have a tariff imposed on those as well.
tit-for-tat
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Yes, modern companies seem highly focused on short term results, because their key success indicator is stock price and that depends upon good short term quarterly results. Investing in the long term is becoming rare.
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The counter-example that comes to mind is Tesla. While they have a huge factory in China, they're going for a model of ore-in/cars-out in their factories in Berlin and Austin. While they won't be perfect, they'll be a lot closer than most companies.
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And I should have also pointed out that the problem with moving an entire supply chain is that each step is usually a different company. Tesla makes it work by being highly vertically integrated, but that's the opposite strategy of most companies.
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To summarize: When using money to get what you want, most things are lesser evils.
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Why don't you buy a new car that gets better mileage and has fewer problems than your old banger? Because you need to buy a car, and you can't sell the one you have.
Same for Apple: new factories aren't free, and the ones they have in China or Taiwan can't be sold. They'll only build a new factory in Africa if they have a business case for it - either a projected date at which the factory will be paid for, or the factory has a strategic value, such as ensure they're not at the mercy of a fickle state. In thi
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why do you need cheap labour ?
it's time to put wall street parasites on a diet. -
**Gestures vaguely at the Apple Foxconn plant in India**
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It's all about supply chains. In China, there are suppliers for everything from standard-parts, tooling, microchips, glass, etc. in one place. If you set up a factory in Africa, or in post-industrial America, you have to fly in all those parts from all over the world, which makes production more expensive and less reliable.
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It's hard to move factories to Africa. Because unless you move the whole supply chain, you will have to take supplies from China, move them to Africa, and then ship the final goods to the destination market. That increases transportation cost and also makes the logistics much harder. Not that it can't be done. And some companies are doing it. But in manufacturing, inertia is much larger than one might predict.
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China is doing that. Google "Belt and Road". China is investing heavily in African nations.
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Not words, recognition. It's what the words represent (acknowledgement that Taiwan is not a part of China) that rightfully and completely understandably "triggered" a head of government who considers that country just a territory of his own.
Try this: Go in earnest and tell your wife that you slept with her best friend. Then call her a little bitch about getting upset over words. That may show you what "words" truly mean.
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Yes, this whole "don't talk about Taiwan" thing doesn't come across as flexing muscle, it comes across as pathetic and insecure. China could honestly have a huge soft power coup by recognizing Taiwan as an independent country, looking magnanimous and internationally trustworthy at zero real cost to themselves. They need to hire like... one PR person.
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when Apple fanbois tell me Apple fights the good fight on data privacy and works hard to preserve their users', I can't help but point out that Apple, like all psychopathic corporations, inherently has zero morals and zero interests in anything other than their bottom line. This is yet another example: they're perfectly willing to go along with China's imperialistic demands provided their supply chain isn't disturbed and they don't lose access to the lucrative Chinese market - and China is perfectly aware of that.
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I remember a recent post I read (maybe here on Slashdot, even) where a guy was noting that he was completely unable to buy a globe for his kid to use to help learn geography, without it labeling Taiwan in this same manner. (Guess where all the globes are manufactured, though.)
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No publicly owned company's "morals" are immune to a few bad quarters.
How long did Netflix say it would never implement ads? Years but just two quarters of losses and subscriber drops and they changed their tune real fast.
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Well, yeah. It isn't that particular companies (or lobbyists) are good or bad, but instead have their own objectives that either align or not with consumers. Apple tends to 'fight the good fight' because their customers are the people who use their devices. They tend to be fighting companies who's customers are not its users.
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Why not just point out that Apple has been part of PRISM for a decade [wikipedia.org]. Whether they had to be served a NSL to get them onboard or not, they are fundamentally part of the panopticon.
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What other Apple's other options? I can't think of any that are good for anyone involved.
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Don't buy anything made in China or with components that exceed 50% made in China.
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Translation, uh, basically, don't buy ANY products. LOLZ
Even our meat is being shipped to China for packaging.
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start slapping a few tariffs on things and it'll change fast.
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Thankfully it's just don't buy. If you said "don't use" then we may not see you for a while given I can take a good guess where your internet modem or your mobile phone was made.
You can only buy very select things not significantly made in China.
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Thank you for describing the problem. Collectively we need to stop doing business with them and bringing more manufacturing to other shores. A lot is already moving to southeast Asia but still, the sooner we move it the better.
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You could buy from hippies at the farmer's market but yeah, no electronics... I hear the Amish make some good furniture and blankets too.
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For many people, "don't buy anything" would be the first step toward sustainable financial management.
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Nice to see that Apple is under China's thumb. They can keep exploiting cheap Chinese labor.
It would be terrible if they had to pay living wages to US workers.-
Makes me wonder why Apple pushed the idea of CSAM scanning... if it can scan for one thing, it can scan for certain bear characters that have fallen out of copyright recently.
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Not just Apple. Apple just gets the headlines because it's a glitzy brand name to grab eyeballs. But it's everybody.
And... you do know that what we're talking about is the labelling of goods made in Taiwan and sold in China, right? This only had to do with cheap labor to the extent that labor in Taiwan is cheap.
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Apple warns suppliers to falsify document and forfeit their own country to China.
That's proper USA spirit!
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Time to build plants outside of China.
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It isn't that simple. Many plants are built outside China, and supply chain diversification IS happening. But it's not just about building a plant. You have to build the entire vertical supply chain. Few places on earth have that.
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Most people are confused... this whole thing is happening because that's exactly what we are trying to do.
The new Chips Act er whatever forces anyone who accepts the US Funding to build out in the US to do so under an agreement to not build out in China. That's a huge string attached.
Pelosi visited to clearly discuss this with people in Taiwan, either officials or executives.
China is pissed two fold. it's not only breaking the one China policy but it's effectively selling Taiwan on economic war with China.
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It's time to load Taiwan up with so much state of the art US hardware that China's terrorist missile attacks are intercepted while a large counterattack from Taiwan neutralizes 70% of China's military.
Then America can decide if we are men or cowards, and finish the job.
End the Chinese Communist Party, an Free Tibet
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Taiwan Theaterwide winner = none
Taiwan Surprise winner = none -
Loading up Taiwan with US hardware is something that has been ongoing for a while. However, there's no reason to be noisy about it. Do it quietly. Nothing good comes from provoking a war.
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They actually are a Republic, unlike the CCP mafia and their hilarious incompetently faked "elections".
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Get ready for a shit-ton of articles with what is basically fallout from the Pelosi visit, a visit that if you are honest did violate the 'one-China' principle which the US has stated many time that it agrees to. Here is a nice fallout list from Al jazeera which I now go to for mostly-bias-free news: https://www.aljazeera.com/news... [aljazeera.com]
Geo-political maneuvering at its finest. Anyway it has been great fun to watch the Republicans praise Pelosi in one breath and trash her in the next. If China was smart, they-
It's all about this US Chips Act. Trying to convince Taiwan industry to build in?America and blacklist China... we could give a rats ass about this island, if it wasn't for how it affects the economy and control of our economy. Heck, just look at HK...
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I bought a 3D printer from China a few years ago. Not an American 3D printer made in China. It contains no useless beige plastic. It contains no one of a kind proprietary parts and no trade secrets. It's firmware is GPL (And I have upgraded it with a newer version from the Github repo). Tech drawings are available online. It has no very special bolts and screws requiring special tools. Any part that needs replacement is available from multiple vendors on Amazon or elsewhere. It works very well. I have been able to expand it's capability through 3rd party upgrade parts. It cost me $200 at the time (now available for $100 if you catch a special deal at Microcenter).
They probably save a good bit of money by not having any marble on the walls in their lobby and not having a boiler room full of "support" people who know nothing about the product but what's on the flip cards anyway.
It is absolutely possible for American companies to do that (they mostly manufacture in China anyway) but they won't.
In a sense, what I did was offshore upper management for huge savings and a much better product. It's nothing they wouldn't do. If American companies want to actually be competitive in the future, they's do well to take a few lessons from that. But I'm guessing they'll be working on raising trade barriers carefully crafted to allow them to continue outsourcing instead.
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It is subsidized but their logistics is also fucking fantastic in some ways. They have to deal with logistics in scales that are significantly larger than our countries and they have done it so well, the ubiquity of online shopping has grown and spread unimaginably.
Amazon started having issues of scale with deliveries which is why they built out more in house logistics. When they did this, they directly told employees, we are studying China's methods and emulating them. I worked there during the primetime o
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The american companies could very well stop with the useless beige coverings that just make things harder to work on. They could stop using special snowflake parts when there is a COTS part available. They could open the firmware. They could accept reasonable margins rather than exorbitant ones. They could stop insisting on maintaining office space in the most expensive places in the U.S. They already have their products made in China, the problem is in design, corporate culture, and stateside management.
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The idea that allowing giant multi-national corporations to satisfy the whims of a totalitarian government will somehow encourage that government to become less oppressive is a fantasy. As we have seen over and over again, the exact reverse happens. The corporations help normalize oppression and make it more efficient, and then they persuade the governments of free countries to create a business-first surveillance state which can become a flat-out dictatorship at the drop of a hat.
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It's not a corporation's job to decide multinational political issues. It's a corporation's job to follow laws where they operate, and in many cases the policy of the home government. It's not Apple's job to recognise Taiwan as anything other than a part of China, not while producing components for the Chinese market, and not while the USA does not formally recognise Taiwan either (no, Pelosi visiting doesn't count as formal relations or official recognition).
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And I feel great pain for the Taiwanese people, who will be caught in the middle of this, punished with their lives.
The global chip industry will survive, TSMC is busy geographically diversifying. Maybe they will migrate their skilled workers along with their families, but many will have to be left behind.
And I doubt we can prevent this. There is no good in China invading and retaking Taiwan, for anyone, except for the reputational impacts. After such a thing, China would be feared. And that is worth it to
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The same can be said about HK. A lot of the better off individuals immigrated 10 to 20 years ago when the writing started on the walls.
The protests that happened were focused on the politics but the reality is it was the economics of this left behind generation struggling to coup with no economic future, fewer chances to immigrate, and an identity they felt uniquely different than China (often even superior).
Now my British first generational HK immigrant only talks about HK in two ways. Either pissed his si
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Every culture has it's own issues/blind spots. The US has issues with religion and guns, that most people outside of the US (and some within) can easily see.
China's main problem is and always has been Face. Honor is what you think of yourself, Reputation is what other people think about you, and Face is what other people are willing to publicly admit they think about you.
China values face. They do not care that people think horrible things about them, as long as they do not say it where others can hear.
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China loves Apple's sweet little ass and we all know who wears the pants in that relationship.
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If they consider Taiwan to be part of China, why do they need customs inspections at all? Does any other country have customs that inspect "domestic" shipments? By treating them specially, they are implicitly admitting that Taiwan is at least somewhat separate.
Yeah, I know it's a lot more complicated than that, but I thought it was interesting.
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There are ports of entry. The US totally does this to some degree though customs is generally regularly and ports of entry are I believe more random checks.
Consider legalization of weed. How does Utah know a huge truck from Washington isn't full of marijuana...
I believe weigh stations in the US can do this but not sure. If you claim to be carrying 100 toasters, they have a specific weight and thus a quick deduction can be done on weight and the manifest. But not sure on the exact process.
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The world did very well without China. We had computers, mobile phones, big TVs, and everything else, when literally nothing was made in China. My first technical job was repairing motherboards at a computer factory in the US. I spent a lot of time in the Nokia factory in the US as well. We need to get our mojo back and stop funding dictators that hate the world.
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They would have bent over backwards for hitler even if they made showers back then.
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In America, Apple is all smiles and a champion of diversity and privacy and freedom.
And then manufactures its products in a country that does not care for any of those things.
If you feel very strongly about this, vote with your wallet, people.
Ironically, posted from my MacBook. -
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They only put "Apple" in the headline as clickbait. All the other companies do the same.
Not a single company in the world is going to throw out the billion-dollar Chinese market because of how the "made in" labels is phrased.
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Calling out the most visible actor is reasonable, even if they're not the only one.
It's also reasonable to consider the larger picture when deciding what actions are reasonable or effective.
Lets add corollary labeling requirements to purchase chips from Taiwan. We need to determine the acceptable options. Products from mainland China must be labeled 'occupied China'; 'Maoist insurrectionist China' - something in that direction.
Maybe Taiwan could add a infogram about 1989 Tiananmen Square, or the Hundred Flower campaign and purge/mass murders on their labeling. You know, a little helpful history lesson for enrichment. -
It goes beyond the "made in" labels. The company I work for does business in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and mainland China. We have to use the term "region" instead of "country" because our Tawain and Hong Kong regions are not subregions of China. I'd have to double check, but I think all other regions are countries.
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Certainly. But nobody gives half a shit if a celebrity announces they boycott mom'n'popshop watches.
Them saying that they won't buy Apple 'cause of this, on the other hand...
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So the alternative would be to topple the main land China government or move manufacturing elsewhere.
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Apple products also say "Designed in California" to try to offset the "Made/Assembled in China" that follows. I think they have asked to be called out in this particular case.
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I'll boycott Apple over this just as soon as I know where to buy cell phones and laptops that do not contain any parts from China.
A quick search of the web tells me that China controls 90% of the rare earth magnet market.
https://www.livewiremarkets.co... [livewiremarkets.com]Rare earth magnets are used in motors, generators, and those tiny little magnets in the speakers and microphones in every cell phone and laptop on the market today. If you don't want to put money in the pockets of China then don't buy any electronics. That includes lighting, because in every LED and CFL light are rare earth elements from China and the USA stopped making incandescent lights years ago.
https://www.treehugger.com/las... [treehugger.com]Have fun sitting in the dark.
There's little doubt that China has been trying to get a monopoly on many vital commodities in order to use that against us in the future. That may take the form of a shooting war.
If we look back at World War Two a big reason why Japan and Germany had to surrender was due to a lack of sufficient fuel to keep fighting. China has a near monopoly on the rare earth elements needed to make windmills, a near monopoly on solar PV cells, all while they are building new nuclear power reactors at an incredible rate.
https://www.energymonitor.ai/s... [energymonitor.ai]China and Russia are clearly trying to cut off the energy supply to the rest of the world. They could only do that if they could have convinced the world to stop building nuclear power plants. Since it takes about five years to build a nuclear power plant, and maybe half that in a time of war, they have set us up for a hostile takeover. We need to rectify this quickly or we will be sitting in the dark, and not because we simply chose to not buy from China but because we have no option to buy from China.
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You can go to Walmart and buy incandescent lights all day long still, I saw them there not too long ago.
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Yes, and those incandescent light bulbs come from China. The point is that the USA can't even keep the lights on without imports from China.
The old light bulb factories may still exist and if push comes to blows then perhaps someone could blow off the dust and get the factories running again in a relatively short amount of time. Maybe hours, maybe days, perhaps a few months, but not the years it would take to start from nothing. The longer this goes on the more we see this manufacturing capacity fade, an
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Our dependency on Chinese imports works both ways. China doesn't want to sabotage the very lucrative US market, so they will restrain themselves just enough to make sure they don't get cut off entirely.
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China is threatening to invade Taiwan. They have to know that doing so would mean an end of friendly trade relations with the USA and many other nations that rely on goods coming out of Taiwan. China does not appear to be all that concerned about maintaining good trade relations. In fact it appears they are using this trade dependence against the USA.
If China didn't want to be cut off from trade with the USA then they would not have threatened to shoot down the airplane with the US Speaker of the House o
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China also knows that its population will be more capable of dealing with the loss of US trade than the other way around. I only have to look at Europe where there are already cries for easing up on the Russia sanctions because of the fear of a lack of heating in Winter.
Funny enough, the first to cave in are the right-wing populists, the parties (and their followers) that usually beat the "national pride" drum. It's kinda funny to see that their ideals are simply and plainly for sale and they suck any cock
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Yes, China is making a lot of noise. But they are stopping short of actual violence. That is what I call blustering. They want Taiwan and the US to know they are unhappy, but not unhappy enough to actually go to war.
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In the US-China trade, the US gets all the things that allow for modern life - chips, finished electronics including computers, machines of all kinds, etc. In return China gets dollars, currency.
China HAS $3.5 trillion in reserve. They could survive just fine without more US dollars. Sure, they LIKE selling us stuff, but they aren't dependent on us the same way we are dependent on them.
Historically and at a fundamental level, cash, a federal reserve note, is a debt instrument saying the US government owes y
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And of those $3.5 trillion of reserves, 58% is held in the form of US bonds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
If China wants to pick a real fight with the US, they will have a hard time withdrawing or using all those reserves. They could certainly hurt the US financially, but in so doing, they should blast their own foot off.
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I buy used tech goods from classified adds lately its a win in multiple levels My money stays local, deeper for me better for the environment.
My 3 year old used laptop may have been made in china but, china did not get any of my money.
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Even if we assume China didn't get any of your money, and an argument can be made that they did in a round about way, then we still know that your money did not go into supporting an alternative source. China holds a favorable trade position until people can get new electronics from some other source. We can "reduce, reuse, recycle" only so much before we run out of used Chinese products to keep our economy running. While it is a "win" to be able to buy used computers instead of new to reduce the amount
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The administrative costs of nuclear power is the result of anti-nuclear propaganda that can be traced back to Russia and China. That propaganda has been quite effective.
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