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Well, there is a very good reason never to buy a car from GM. Companies cannot be expected to support cars forever but this is far too early to leave people hanging.

One of the motivating factors to purchase from the Big 3 is that consumers are constantly being told about huge service chain and support network that these longstanding companies have. If they turn their back on their early adopters, why would anyone go with them instead of Tesla or one of the many other upstart EV companies now?

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 10:55 AM

I get your hesitation, the image isn’t great. But the Spark EV was a limited production testbed car that was almost universally leased, not sold, to the original buyers. Those people GM sold Spark EV’s to either bought/leased a Bolt or moved on entirely.

I fully expect an aftermarket solution to arise for these battery packs – either rebuilding the old packs with new lithium cells or an aftermarket pack entirely. The reason why this hasn’t happened yet? Only 7,400 of them were built over the ~4 year production run. There just hasn’t been a large enough market to support these things in the aftermarket when they’re just now running out of warranty.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:02 PM

Maybe that’s true, but there are likely a majority of the 7400 still on the road today and after a lease is done cars are usually sold in the used market. So, there are likely thousands of owners affected by this.

And it is a big middle finger: Because according to GM, it has nothing to do with dwindling demand. Rather, it’s because they just don’t want to make them anymore.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:34 PM

"Don’t want to make them anymore" seems petty. That’s not exactly what it is. The cells are getting redirected towards new vehicles instead of supporting the older ones out there. You may not agree with that decision, but it’s 10’s of thousands of pre-orders against 7,400 cars. It may be as you say a "big middle finger" but outside of whatever traction this news gets this cycle, it’s unlikely to reach enough people to matter to the bottom line. Even thousands of customers being effected is unlikely to wave likely buyers of the Escalade and Hummer EVs, and whatever else is in the pipeline. Those customers don’t care about whatever GM did with the Spark.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 4:32 PM

7400 isn’t nothing but this was a state compliance car, you couldn’t get it outside of a handful of states to begin with. Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have made these available in all 50 states and supported them forever (they turned out to be pretty great little cars, I came really close to getting one) but I’m not surprised.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 11:55 AM

If they can get away with dumping support for customers here, then you really shouldn’t be asking will they ever do it again but rather when they will do it again.

This just highlights the need for there to be better standards for battery design in EVs, it would be an incredible waste to be disposing of perfectly functional vehicles simply because companies don’t want to replace one part and flies in the face of adopting EVs for the environment.

A car should never be treated the same as a small and cheap disposable device.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:59 PM

The fact you’re thinking this problem is unique to EVs is frankly bizarre. Go look for a tail lamp assembly for a mid-2000s Cadillac XLR, I’ll wait. Used examples will go for $2,000+ because of this exact type of situation, and you can’t drive without brake lights!

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 1:27 PM

I’m quite certain a mid-2000s Cadillac XLR is under original factory warranty. The two are not related.

That said, if GM is unable or unwilling to honor the warranty, I would wait to see how they respond before formally lynching them either. If they take an 8 year old car and offer $25,000 credit back towards a new GM vehicle, it’s not the worst solution.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 4:19 PM

That’s not how I meant it, there is a big difference between a light assembly and a battery pack. That being the battery pack is expensive, potentially very dangerous and completely essential to the functioning of the car.

I’m sure I could bodge a replacement light if push came to shove, wouldn’t want to try that with high voltage though.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 5:42 PM

> I’m sure I could bodge a replacement light if push came to shove

you can’t. There’s whole forum threads of people trying, it’s a sealed unit with little means of nondestructive entry or egress – as is the norm for many car components these days. It connects digitally through an uncommonly used, secured bus to the car’s body control computers to enable fancy LED sequencing.

We live in a world where consumer cars are treated as disposable items with a preplanned lifecycle. This is not unique to EVs, though it’s a problem we do need to solve – most readily with right to repair legislation

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 7:44 PM

OK so you can’t buy third party versions? You can’t find a garage to install a different light system? I’m willing to bet you have options even if they’re undesirable and I stress the battery system is vastly more dangerous/important than a light.

Let’s not get too side tracked, as I said earlier, it’s the perfect opportunity to demand a standardised battery system so we can avoid problems like this, then manufacturer’s can drop support for a product and end users will still have options, if they’re not prepared to do that then they should be required to keep supporting those devices for considerably longer than 10 years.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 6:55 AM

Is told "No, there is no solution to this. The support forums are rife with pissed off and desperate people", proceeds to insist there is a solution so they can continue their narrative about this being an issue unique to EVs.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 7:44 AM

I think the point to remember here is that in interviews, the Big 3 have stated in the past that people should be waiting for their EVs because they have an advantage of a huge supply and repair network that upstarts like Tesla do not. Clearly this shows that none of that matters. If GM wants to abandon their customers, they will abandon their customers.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 11:19 AM

This is why I’m waiting to buy an EV. I know what a 15 year old Toyota is like, I know what a 15 year old iPhone battery is like, and none of us know what a 15 year old EV is like.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 11:02 AM

There’s lots of data on battery degradation, and generally giant car batteries degrade slower than smaller lithium ion batteries in things like AirPods. Modern EVs also have liquid cooling for the battery cells to extend the health of the battery packs.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 11:19 AM

Given how expensive cars are, I’m really leaning on seeing how this one plays out in real-time. Most of the cost of EVs are the battery packs and they wear out.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:15 PM

Ten years ago the average new car sold for $22k while an EV battery pack was $15k. Now the average new car sells for $60k and an EV battery pack is $10k. It’s no longer a huge percent of the value of the car. Even a 4 year old used EV will sell for the same that it sold for new. Depreciation no longer really exists until you hit the 10 year mark. A gas car is just as likely to have a catastrophic fault at 15 years old and need an equally expensive component replaced.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:21 PM

Old internal combustion engine cars really need $10K in service? Not ones that I’ve owned but perhaps I’m lucky.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:23 PM

If a transmission or engine failed catastrophically, as can certainly happen to gas cars after 15 years, you’re looking at $4k-12k.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 3:11 PM

Now the average new car sells for $60k and an EV battery pack is $10k. It’s no longer a huge percent of the value of the car

Depends on the car—some up to $20,000 USD. See this article that breaks it down by car type and cost per kilowatt https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/costs-ev-battery-replacement

Also, the average price of a new car was $45,927 USD in March of 2022… not $60,000 like you said. Link https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2022-04-11-New-Vehicle-Transaction-Prices-Decline-for-Third-Straight-Month,-but-Remain-Above-MSRP-in-March,-according-to-Kelley-Blue-Book

Also, I could not find a source for your claim:

A gas car is just as likely to have a catastrophic fault at 15 years old and need an equally expensive component replaced.

But, I agree in my anecdotal experience.
While it is hard to pin down the average cost of ownership for an older car (my 2010 Lexus RX just had about $1,900 of repairs i.e. suspension shocks, new brake pads & rotors) but has had no major issues with 12 years of ownership and 195,000 miles. Shocks and brakes will be consumable on EVs as much as ICE, and if the engine or transmission gives out at 15 years/250,000 miles and that is when a battery goes bad for an EV than I would consider that equal. Engine and transmission repairs or replacements would be $5-20K USD.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 10:20 AM

It’s much easier to use full battery charge cycles on these older EVs with small pack capacity and low range than on the newer vehicles with larger packs.

On a Spark, Leaf, Soul EV, etc with only 20-30kWh capacity and sub-100 mile range you’re going to use much more of the capacity with fairly normal driving than you would on today’s EVs with 2x the battery capacity and range.

It seems like the 60+kWh pack vehicles have pretty decent degradation from the available information, though obviously those cars are mostly a few years newer, and most have better thermal management than a lot of the older, low-capacity vehicles did. IIRC, early Leafs had no active thermal management. Our Soul EV just has a fan to suck air through the pack. Most (all?) of the newer, higher capacity pack vehicles have liquid cooling that performs much better.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:30 PM

I’ve seen data recently that around 2010 ev batteries ran about ~$2,000/kWh and are projected to be around $100/kWh by 2024 I think. It’s no longer true that the battery is the majority of the cost.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 2:51 PM

I’d be interested to see what the mean time to failure winds up being on modern EVs. Granted, it’s likely longer than I’d plan on owning the car. Otherwise, there would be a lot more coverage about dead EVs and Teslas that only get 20 miles bc it stopped holding a charge in winter.

We know what the degradation curve looks like. I want to see how long it takes the latest ones to die completely. Just idle curious it’s. I’m still buying an EV for my next car.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:18 PM

I did a ridiculous amount of research and it depends on a lot of things, but from most studies, EV batteries just lose like a percentage of overall charge late in life. So if your car can go 200 miles brand new, maybe at 100k miles it’ll do 150. Compared to a lot of things that can happen to your car late in life, that seems… not so bad to me.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 12:04 PM

Leafs (Leaves?) don’t actually which still kinda blows my mind. I think EVs are still a little "early adopter-y" generally but we might finally be coming around on that.
The other thing to keep in mind, generally speaking, if a Spark or another EV’s battery was faulty it would have been replaced under warranty already, in all likelihood. Old EV batteries don’t die and then stop turning on, they just lose capacity. So if you need to get your Spark’s pack replaced it’s probably because it’s only capable of going 70 miles instead of 89. I think that’s significantly different than an engine or transmission blowing out.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 12:02 PM

Who has a 15 year old iPhone? On ICE’s i’m write there with you as someone who drives a 2003 subaru with over 240k miles. Being able to repair things is extremely important to me.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:15 PM

That’s exactly my point. We don’t have large scale data on how well the batteries hold up after 15 years whereas I know ICE will work fine.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:19 PM

I had one (an original 2007 iPhone), but it’d be nearly useless now as it was only 2G, even if it still somehow held a charge.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 1:44 PM

Nice. I also drive a 2003 Subaru… as well as a 1996 Subaru. I agree with you. I don’t buy new cars, I drive and maintain my old cars basically forever.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 7:40 AM

The reason no one uses a 15 year old iPhone is because none of the software supports it.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 7:50 AM

I am waiting for two things:

1. Standard drive train components that are easy for aftermarket vendors to make
2. Aluminum-ion batteries to get used in the vehicles.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 7:46 AM

the original Chevy Volts from 2010 have been studied and turns out they dont degrade as badly as everyone thought, mainly because of the conservative way it charges and doesnt let you charge to actual full 100%. (the dash says its at 100%, but the cell is actually at 80% with the rest being a buffer)

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 1:59 PM

Ye gods that thing is hideous.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 6:58 AM

People really look at the EV1 with rose tinted glasses. It was uglier than sin, got shit mileage, and came out when gas was cheap as hell.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 10:07 AM

I strongly suspect our 2015 Soul EV will be in a similar position soon. We’ve been trying to get a quote for a remanufactured battery pack (~$2000 part) but supplies of those are seemingly pretty limited. A new pack isn’t exactly palatable at $12-13,000 in parts cost alone once you’re out of warranty.

We had the original battery replaced at around 40,000 miles when the car was only a little over 3 years old. 65,000 miles later it needs another, which is not ideal. It’s been a great car otherwise.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:21 PM

That’s not a good sign. Was the degradation more then 15%?

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 12:38 PM

The first battery was replaced at ~65% battery health. The current battery started showing high degradation at 105k (just past the "EV System Warranty" of 100k). That was 65k miles into the life of the replacement battery, now at 115k, it appears to be at about 50-60% health but is out of warranty. IIRC, the warranty threshold was ~70% capacity after 10yr/100k miles.

Not great, obviously. The car now gets about 40-45 miles around town on a full charge, or about 30 if it’s almost all highway speeds.

A "new" battery is just over $12,000, not including labor for the replacement.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 1:18 PM

It was a small battery that you would have to deep charge on most charge cycles so of course the packs died sooner. I bet there was no active maintenance measures either on it, so it just got hot and only used air cooling from driving to remove the heat.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 7:52 AM

Just recently bought the 2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV. I don’t plan on keeping this car for long, possibly upgrading, but I feel bad for the 2nd owner who wants to purchase this as a used EV.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 5:02 PM

This is just BS

Hope there’s a class-action over this.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 6:56 PM

Pretty sure GM already took a class-action into account before making this decision and I’m pretty sure they don’t care.

Posted  on Apr 24, 2022 | 9:19 PM

As if I needed more reasons to never buy a GM car lol. I really don’t understand how GM blew the whole EV experiment so hard after literally being one of the firsts in the market with an offering in terms of the Bolt. They literally sat on their asses while Tesla upended their whole market. Even Ford now looks years ahead of GM with their offerings like the Mach E. They had every opportunity to nail this out of the park and yet they failed miserably.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 12:15 AM

GM went after the wrong demographic. The made budget friendly vehicles, that had low performance. That seems to be a common strategy for new manufacturers in the market. Exactly what Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyundai, did. Those companies built brand loyalty and then provided better vehicles as their customers wanted better vehicles, and the general public trusted their brand. It was not the worse strategy for GM to take, but they failed to really build a trust in EVs, nor did they ever provide better vehicles for their customers to trade up to.

Telsa took a completely different approach. Build a more high end vehicle with better performance. Sell the vehicle on it’s feature rather than just low cost. Obviously worked well for them, and why other brands are selling similar vehicles now. I think what makes Ford different is they are not just making the high performance vehicle, but making an EV truck that looks like a truck, and hitting the fleet sales market.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 8:34 AM

I agree. Never introduce high cost, new technology at low prices.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 10:29 AM

This is why I think people’s hate for toyota is unfounded. All the news sources have been ignoring the part where toyotas new ev has a 10 year battery warranty. I think I read toyota says 90 percent battery capacity at the 10 year mark. That’s huge if true and should be bigger news. Especially with all the news of batteries dying at 8 years.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 9:35 AM

1. This stinks. Having a car that is only 10 years old, and if one item fails, means you lose the auto no matter how much you would sink into it, sucks.

2. Like others said, this is not unique to EVs. Variations of engines, you may lose yours, and have a difficult time sourcing another. Heck, even if you can repair a car, it may not be worth repairing – ask any owner of a 12-year-old BMW when its engine goes.

3. I wonder how much we will see third-party suppliers come in on battery packs? Any digital camera, laptop, cellphone – there is a third party pattern you can find. Some are just pure garbage, but there are some, especially for digital cameras, that match OEM performance (I have found Jupio seem to be good for may one camera that hates third party batteries).

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 11:10 AM

Defeats the purpose of EVs if they just take the e-waste problem to the next level.

Posted  on Apr 25, 2022 | 2:36 PM