It's 70 Degrees Warmer than Normal in Eastern Antarctica. Scientists Flabberga...
source link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/22/03/19/1739221/its-70-degrees-warmer-than-normal-in-eastern-antarctica-scientists-flabbergasted
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It's 70 Degrees Warmer than Normal in Eastern Antarctica. Scientists Flabbergasted
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"The warmth has smashed records and shocked scientists." "This event is completely unprecedented and upended our expectations about the Antarctic climate system," said Jonathan Wille, a researcher studying polar meteorology at Université Grenoble Alpes in France, in an email. "Antarctic climatology has been rewritten," tweeted Stefano Di Battista, a researcher who has published studies on Antarctic temperatures. He added that such temperature anomalies would have been considered "impossible" and "unthinkable" before they actually occurred.
Parts of eastern Antarctica have seen temperatures hover 70 degrees (40 Celsius) above normal for three days and counting, Wille said. He likened the event to the June heat wave in the Pacific Northwest, which scientists concluded would have been "virtually impossible" without human-caused climate change.
What is considered "warm" over the frozen, barren confines of eastern Antarctica is, of course, relative. Instead of temperatures being minus-50 or minus-60 degrees (minus-45 or minus-51 Celsius), they've been closer to zero or 10 degrees (minus-18 Celsius or minus-12 Celsius) — but that's a massive heat wave by Antarctic standards. The average high temperature in Vostok — at the center of the eastern ice sheet — is around minus-63 (minus-53 Celsius) in March. But on Friday, the temperature leaped to zero (minus-17.7 Celsius), the warmest it's been there during March since record keeping began 65 years ago. It broke the previous monthly record by a staggering 27 degrees (15 Celsius). "In about 65 record years in Vostok, between March and October, values ââabove -30ÂC were never observed," wrote Di Battista in an email....
University of Wisconsin Antarctic researchers Linda Keller and Matt Lazzara said in an email that such a high temperature is particularly noteworthy since March marks the beginning of autumn in Antarctica, rather than January, when there is more sunlight. At this time of year, Antarctica is losing about 25 minutes of sunlight each day.
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I mean absolutely fucking criminal that I have to read all the way to the 4th paragraph to find out if it is Celsius or Fahrenheit. And by the way it is Fahrenheit.-
That would be 3rd paragraph of the/. posting, or second paragraph of the quoted material.
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Actually, I see what you're saying. I could kinda-sorta agree it's the 4th paragraph. Poor thing.
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4th paragraph in the original article which I clicked on instantly before finishing the summary. Yes. Poor me. The pain is real. Oh, also, I guess if the ice in antarctica melts that might be significant, too. But mainly I am just suffering because I had to read four paragraphs.
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Bullshit.
You're attempt to deflect any individual responsibility relies on "big oil" actively suppressing the damage done by burning gasoline/diesel/etc... We non-Big Oil people knew about the effects of greenhouse gases including those from ICE vehicles since the early 70s.
If you doubt this, check into the first earth day and the claims swirling around at the time regarding Global Cooling.
The first Earth Day was in 1970, and the founder of Earth Day described its origin here:
https://time.com/5570269/earth. [time.com]
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That article does not in any way support the idea that the link between CO2 and climate change was recognized in the 70's. Do you have another link? I was born in the late 60's and I don't remember hearing anything about climate change until maybe the mid/late 80's. There was something called the iron hypothesis. That primary productivity in the oceans is iron limited and the simple act of adding iron could boost that productivity, thereby sequestering many tons of CO2.
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The model was developed in the 1950s, and it was accepted by many scientists by the 1970s.
There were congressional hearings and big press coverage in 1988. That is when I recall hearing about it.
Iron fertilization of the oceans has been tested and appears to work, but it is not politically correct to advocate even continued research, much less large-scale application. The rationale is that people will see it as an "easy fix" that may diminish the urgency of reducing fossil fuel consumption.
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That article does not in any way support the idea that the link between CO2 and climate change was recognized in the 70's.
I learned it in school, I came to school 1973, and it was around 1977 as it was a topic in science class. -
You're using the "I haven't heard of it, so, it only started when I heard of it."
One thing Kenh is wrong about - the date. Try the 1820's when Joseph Fourier first noted a possible issue, John Tyndall identified that Carbon Dioxide and water vapor trapped energy in the atmosphere in the form of heat.
So like it or not, the energy retention characteristics of an atmosphere are not only sollid physics, but are long known.
This is happening, and as we've gathered knowledge, we only prove it.
In my fai
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OK, actually it looks like Edward Teller, for example, called attention to CO2 levels potentially causing global warming way back in 1959. So, no need to provide any additional links. I am satisfied that some people were raising the flag prior to 1970.
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Actually, Svante Arrhenius in the 1890s came up with the theory.
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Yeah I saw that in wikipedia. But there was no consensus behind it for a long time and so I don't think it was taught very much to students. As far as credit where credit is due, yeah. But as far as it being an idea that is out there and being discussed among non scientist population, not so much.
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What kind of world requires consensus to define truth?
The energy retention characteristics of an atmosphere have been known for 200 ywars, or 150 if you want to get pedantic. We fucked around, now we find out.
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Well, let's say you are not a scientist. One scientist says carbon dioxide will lead to global warming. A large number of other scientists say it will not because the numbers that the first scientist is using are inaccurate. Where does that leave you as a non-scientist? This is what happened to Arrhenius (at least that is what wikipedia says).
Sometimes scientists (even famous ones) believe in stupid things that are totally wrong. You seem to be assuming that the objective truth can be easily discerned abo
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If you didn't catch my earlier links - try the 1920's. proven in the 1890s.
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"Individual responsibility" is from the big tobacco playbook, much like the questionable research that preceded it.
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> If you doubt this, check into the first earth day and the claims swirling around at the time regarding Global Cooling.
Yes, do [scientificamerican.com]
> The first Earth Day was in 1970, and the founder of Earth Day described its origin here:
And doesn't mention cooling or warming, so not sure what's up with that.
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I have mod points but I can't mod you up since I commented.
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Which one was wrong?
It wasn't metric, it wasn't imperial. It was programmers who weren't as smart as they thought they were.
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Using Fahrenheit means a bigger number and a more dramatic headline.
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Well, if you are writing in America it makes sense to use Fahrenheit, but in this case, since it was reporting on a scientific publication, or at least quoting a bunch of PhD's, it was not clear that Fahrenheit was the default unit, since no modern scientific paper would use Fahrenheit.
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They should use Kelvin - any measurement system that goes negative is dopey. Celsius is every bit as stupid and unwieldy as Fahrenheit.
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First of all, negative temperatures are possible even in Kelvin. Second of all, even if some kind of logical case can be made for Kelvin, that logic does not change the fact that a lot of people are just used to Celsius and if you start giving them weather forecasts in Kelvin, or having thermostats use Kelvin, they are just going to be pissed off. It is just not realistic. If you were going for +1 funny and I spoiled it, my apologies. Sometimes it is hard to tell on Slashdot. Personally I am American, and f
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Shoulda used Kelvin then! 8^)
Actually, I kinda wonder why in the pursuit of one measurement system to rule them all, Kelvin isn't promoted over C or F?
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Climate scientists have been saying for a long time now already that the highest relative warming is nearer the poles.
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Only unexpected by the eternally clueless. These people are forever surprised when scientifically sound predictions actually turn out to be, you know, scientifically sound.
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You mean like these unscientific people:
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Obviously not a good scientist if he things "unthinkable" and "impossible" have a place in Science. Well, that or he just likes grandstanding, benefiting nobody. All this shows is that we still know too little about the climate and everything we do not know may well turn out to make things to come even worse.
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He added that such temperature anomalies would have been considered "impossible" and "unthinkable" before they actually occurred.
Note the conjunctive.
It is in fact unthinkable that he himself did not consider it. He basically is paraphrasing the thinking of ordinary people.That the poles - or any cold area - is getting dramatically warm, we observe since 30 years or more. The areas I live in Germany at, had no real winter since decades. With some luck, 5 days snow. The worst combination of everything: tempe
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Well, yes. If this is for what non-experts expected, I agree to that.
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Exactly. We've had enough experience with the inadequacy of climate models that anyone who is "shocked" by this news - scientist or not - is probably also "thick".
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And yet the models, if anything, are likely too conservative.
But if you believe thermodynamics somehow functions differently on Earth, then do detail out your models
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I think the statement you replied to was "too conservative" as well.
And that is just the thing: If the models are accurate, we are already pretty badly screwed. If they are too conservative, this may well go up to "end of civilization" and may also include "end of humans on earth". If they are too pessimistic, we still will be screwed, just not as hard. Of course the yes/no crowd is not equipped mentally to even begin to understand such "subtleties".
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Obviously not a good scientist if he things "unthinkable" and "impossible" have a place in Science. Well, that or he just likes grandstanding, benefiting nobody. All this shows is that we still know too little about the climate and everything we do not know may well turn out to make things to come even worse.
A scientist can be gobsmacked without being incompetent. When are they going to start using "Scientists are Gobsmacked!" 8^)
I uttered a writ of "Holy Shit!" when I read the story. Chilling, ironically
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A Scientists primary job is to secure funding for next years research. His/her secondary function is to carry out the research. Grandstanding is part of the job description.
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As similar situation is happening in social media, where weird stuff gets posted about "so and so was unknown and not getting her due!"
I read a story recently how Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin was horribly treated, never getting any respect, and that was proof of something.
Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin? Seriously, one of the most gifted, hard working and acknowledged astronomers ever put on this earth, and "no one knows about her"? Maybe if one's education is from Keeping up with the Kardashians, Naked and Afraid
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we'll be able to join the rest of the flat earth.
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Maybe I'll finally get a chance to use the Stargate! Or, maybe even better, the Control Chair!
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"But if you bring up the now proven Hunter Biden child porn laptop..."
In the tub... relaxing... nothing pressing... hadn't heard that one before. Oh, what the hell. Let's look it up.
You... fucking... retard.
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If the Earth is flat...why haven't the giant cloud cats knocked us all over the edge...I'll get a grant to study this right away lol. Cheers mate!
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Ya, the nerve of them scientists putting their temperature gauges down there in Antarctica where they record those numbers that embarrass you. I'll bet you figure your doctor telling you to stop doing something because it will kill you makes you think he only wants to preserve you for the fees you pay him to tell you when you are screwing up.
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Yeah, everyone knows that scientists everywhere are swimming in wealth a la Scrooge McDuck. Not like the powerful and truthful oil executives who are living a life of threadbare subsistence. Oh that's right, that's not what's happening at all.
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No the VA PA medical chief is paid a whole 30K/year more than the NIH medical chief. Maybe if we dig deep, we can find bigfoot's pay-band in here too.
https://www.federalpay.org/emp... [federalpay.org]
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And those salaries are probably only 60-80% of what industry pays for the same talent. They are taking a heavy pay cut to be government employees.
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Pretty sure a "climate alarm" is warranted, and has been for decades. What with the laws of physics not asking Exxon-Mobil for permission to exist.
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What about COVID, breast cancer and Lupus?
I haven't heard about COVID in 4 hours and breast cancer activism has been silent for 2 years.
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If you think one or both of those is a higher priority, that's fine to argue. But you didn't argue it. Didn't even claim it. You just seemed to be dismissing the whole subject.
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Woops, my apologies. I thought you were the commenter I was replying to before.
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Units, Slashdot, units. Kelvin?
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Fahrenheit.
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Please check your maps, especially a polar projection. Vostok is fairly close to water, and the southern pole get alot of wind (check here [nullschool.net]. All's it takes is a shift, and you go from 220K up to 270K.
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by nevermindme ( 912672 ) on Saturday March 19, 2022 @06:10PM (#62372787)
The ice caps get thicker with warmer weather (-20C to -5C), the only way moisture is transported into the Antierotic interior that receives very little precipitation and is very dry and very cold. Weather and the conduction of moister into antierotic interior is something that does not have a tremendous amount of observation from space and weather radar history.
The climate studies folks really need to admit the southern hemisphere has a ton of things to show us as the instrumentation increases with better data services to the region.-
You lost me at antierotic!:)
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"Antierotic interior"
Reminds me of a....
Oh dear...
At least a dozen witty comments spring to mind almost instantly but I think I'd better bite my tongue (as a gesture of solidarity with the antierotic).
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Amazing that it took all of recorded history for the wind to change. The only explanation I can think of is the polar ice walls that surround Earth were stopping the wind. Probably was a Judenlasersatellite that melted them. Nothing else makes sense.
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by Kernel Kurtz ( 182424 ) on Saturday March 19, 2022 @07:52PM (#62372989)
Amazing that it took all of recorded history for the wind to change.
It is especially easy when all of recorded history is half a century.
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Man... somebody better go tell the aviators, sailors, and meteorologists of the world that they're wasting their time measuring the wind every day. Checking it once on their 18th birthday should be enough. They'll be retired before the wind changes.
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Wind is the immediate cause yes, but that doesn't mean global warming isn't the ultimate cause.
Global warming causes wind patterns to change, some of the cold snaps this past winter were due to global warming weakening the jet stream and allowing the polar vortex to expand past the north pole. I wouldn't be surprised is something similar is happening here.
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??? I might believe a weaker polar vortex that allows the surface (warmer) Screaming Sixties winds in. Polar vortex is what drives the 220K from altitude. Strong polar in the northern hemi and weaker in the south might be plausible.
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The interaction between the polar vortex and climate change is pretty well documented [ucdavis.edu], though again, I brought it up as an example more than a cause.
I don't know if what's going on in Antarctica has anything to do with the northern polar jet stream, but climate change can certainly cause drastic temperature shifts by affecting jet streams.
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That is what most people don't know, mitigating facts are left out of narratives.
First of all scientists have known about this for decades it's just not put out to the public until it can be used to HELP the narrative not cause doubt on it. The East snow has been meting to the winds and being redeposited on the West. Until just recently (last 2 years) there was actually a yearly net gain in ice/snow volume while it's coverage area gets smaller.
1. We are in the middle of a deep (possibly a long deep due t
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This! this is how in periods of generally increased temperatures, odd warm or cold spells can occur. Coriolis happens.
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Squeals in delight! Kelvin smiles upon us.
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...there isn't just an emperor penguin that's mistaken the thermometer for its egg?
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there's a huge pile of encrypted code visible at the bottom of this discussion this page?
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Never mind. It's gone again.
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My bad.
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Real scientists use Kelvin or Celsius scales, and don't faff around with archaic units.
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You can take my abacas from my cold, dead hands. Don't even think about my slide rule.
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They're flabbergasted? Hell, I'm dumbfounded!
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Please do not quote temperatures in Fahrenheit, a measurement that most of the planet has no concept of understanding of.
0 degrees = water freezes; 100 degrees water boils [at sea level of course].
You can be clever and move to Kelvin for extra geek points.
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