Fourth Pfizer Dose Is Insufficient to Ward Off Omicron, Israeli Trial Suggests
source link: https://science.slashdot.org/story/22/01/17/213242/fourth-pfizer-dose-is-insufficient-to-ward-off-omicron-israeli-trial-suggests?sbsrc=md
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Fourth Pfizer Dose Is Insufficient to Ward Off Omicron, Israeli Trial Suggests
Make it 6th, 7th, 8th, Shove it up your arse and recite a holy prayer. Do it every month. IT WILL STILL NOT WORK. As a vaccine IT DOES NOT WORK against Omicron and was not particularly good against Delta. Statement of the fact.
When a vaccine DOES NOT work it DOES NOT work. And Pfizer DOES NOT work for anything after the first few strains. One look at the curves could have told you that a month ago. In fact, I posted it a month ago here and dumfuck cretins sh*theads which cannot do elementary maths did not
More doesn't equate to better.
If your body is already primed to look out for particular protein strains. Telling your immune system to look out for these again isn't going to do too much.Omicron is a mutation, so it has different characteristics that will make your bodies immune response to take some extra effort into recognizing and fighting it off. That said, it still has a fair amount of similarities so the Vaccines are effective, and normally your body can fight it off much faster than those who don't
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If we are going to use agile to change fast, might as well use waterfall. If we are not going to do tailored vaccines than might as well use whole virus vaccines which have been used for decades
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Edit If we are NOT going to use agile to change fast, might as well use waterfall.
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We're shaking our heads too, at how willfully ignorant you are. It's so benign, uh huh.
Funny how NOT doing a Delta-specific vaccine has proven to be the right choice. Good thing they didn't consult you. SMH.
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Back any of your statements up with some facts, or STFU.
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"It's when they call you dumb ass that you know you've got them." - Collin Robinson
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They were making a delta vaccine, but the safety testing was not finished when omicron became the dominant strain. The original vaccines were designed in a matter of days; it was the testing that took so long.
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>"The whole reason we went with mrna vaccines which were a new type of vaccine was that they are fast to make and you can tailor them for variants. I was dissapointed when a delta specific vaccine booster wasn't issued but with Omicron being so infectious why are we not rolling out a tailored vaccine."
Probably because even as fast a MRNA is, Omnicron was even faster- precisely because it is 700 times (or however many hundreds of times) more infectious. It has already peaked in several countries, and loo
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Omicron was determined to replicate 70x faster in the body than delta, it ‘only’ spreads 3x faster than delta which spreads substantially better than the original strain which spreads quite fast. Despite only 5-6ish people getting sick from each person that has it, it replicates so quickly it spreads 20x faster than measles which is one of the fastest spreading viruses known. Good thing it looks slightly less lethal because it is now near dystopian fiction levels of spread, there is a reason e
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I feel the same way. Pfizer has already started trials for an omicron specific shot [cnbc.com] so hopefully we are only a few months away. It’s amazing that the payload can be changed and updated in only a few days, but testing for safety and efficacy are still important and take time, then it takes further time to ramp up production if it’s not produced in parallel at the risk of losing lots of money.
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The "original" estimate when Omicron was named a "Variant of Concern" was "we'll start research for a new vaccine right away, we'll see if we need to actually make it" - with availability somewhere in March. Not sure if it was Moderna or Pfizer, but they should reach production about the same.
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My understanding is that we need a pan-corona virus vaccine, but unlike OWS, there is no large scale effort to make one. Turns out there are some people who have natural pan-corona virus immunity, so there is a natural model for making one. One off vaccines are not the best way to resolve the problem of C19. From here we get into public policy...
Very informative discussion about C19; the basis of my reply. [youtu.be] -
Moderna had five second generation vaccine candidates in testing in February. It was oriented to Beta and would have finished testing by August at the latest.
All the vaccine makers have been making new vaccines but I'm not sure any other went into Phase II.
It's not quite the same as software but when they made the v1 vaccines they had little idea which parts of the spike would mutate. Only 1 in 40 antibodies affects Omicron.
No-one has explained why none of the second generation vaccines are ready.
As far a
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A common problem with vaccine trials is finding the right volunteers. Guessing, if they need unvaccinated volunteers, they'll be hard to find.
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"If we are [not] going to use agile to change fast, might as well use waterfall."
Ignoring the terrible analogy, your problem is your lack of understanding of what is fast and what is not.
"If we are not going to do tailored vaccines than might as well use whole virus vaccines which have been used for decades"
You sound like quite the vaccine expert. Who ever said that the used techniques were chosen so that we could "do tailored vaccines"? Perhaps you could develop your own "whole virus vaccine" instead. S
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"Perhaps you could develop your own 'whole virus vaccine' instead."
Why? J&J vaccine already exists. And it's the go to vaccine for Africa, which has much better COVID numbers than the rest of the world.
I trust African science.
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J&J is not a whole virus vaccine. Its an adenovirus vector vaccine. The only effective whole virus vaccine is the Indian Covaxin but they are having problems scaling up production to more than 50 million. Whole virus vaccines are grown in chicken eggs and take much longer to make.
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My understanding is that the Delta variant vaccine is still in testing. Here's the announcement from August, https://newsrescue.com/pfizer-... [newsrescue.com]
Perhaps they have had a harder time finding the right volunteers, often a problem with vaccine trials. -
Variant-specific mRNA vaccines are in trials and that tends to take a while. While it's indeed possible to use the technology to create a new vaccine really quickly, it's currently impossible to get it approved for human use without clinical trials. For example, the Pfizer vaccine many of us have had was developed in a matter of hours but it took a year before it became available. There isn't some blanket approval for "mRNA vaccine" where the contents of the vaccine could then be rapidly changed without aff
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They go on an "accelerated" testing - that means there is partial overlap (in time) over the three testing phases (with tens/hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of subjects).
Even with this overlap, it takes some three months for the entire testing phase, generating the results and documentation and the actual approval process by the health agencies (federal, national, European,...).
Production ramp up can start early, with the vaccine companies "eating" the risk of regulatory disapproval - but even s
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Pfizer says they will have one in March. Given the characteristics of Omicron by then there will be few left who have not already been infected with Omicron.
There is Novavax and Sinovac.
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Novavax is a protein vaccine not a whole virus vaccine. Sinovac has really poor effectiveness. Almost everyone in my wife's extended family got Covid even though they had full vaccination with Sinovac. Even the official numbers only claim 50%. The only effective whole virus vaccine right now is the Indian Covaxin and maybe the Cuban vaccine but I havnt seen 3rd party data on the Cuban vaccine
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They're already talking March they'll have a omicron specific vaccine, and it's a tweaked vaccine so it should go through approvals quickly. Figure April or May for the at-risk folks in June for the rest of us.
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The whole reason we went with mrna vaccines which were a new type of vaccine was that they are fast to make and you can tailor them for variants. I was dissapointed when a delta specific vaccine booster wasnt issued but with Omicron being so infectious why are we not rolling out a tailored vaccine.
If we are going to use agile to change fast, might as well use waterfall. If we are not going to do tailored vaccines than might as well use whole virus vaccines which have been used for decades
It takes about 3 months to produce one batch of the mRNA vaccines. Omicron was discovered about a month and a half ago. Pfizer is talking about having an Omicron variant available in March. It's a huge improvement over prior vaccines - the annual flu vaccines take over 6 months to make.
A Delta variant was researched, but it just wasn't necessary. The original vaccine worked fine against it. The Delta mutations didn't affect the area the vaccine targeted. The need for the booster was just typical vaccine behavior. Most vaccines we take require 3-4 doses. In the long run, we may end up needing more doses due to scheduling. For the best long term immunity, you want the doses spaced further apart. The short spacing we're doing now generates a high level of immunity faster, but it doesn't generate as good a long term response. Once we move from the pandemic phase to endemic, we'll probably adjust the schedules to give less doses but give them further apart.
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The speed of creating a vaccine doesn't determine how quickly you can get it to market. There's a reason the mRNA vaccine hit the market at the same time as the traditional vaccines, despite effectively being made in a weekend. The *real* reason we went with mRNA was not speed but rather targeting of specific proteins, which is also why mRNA vaccines ended up being more effective at stopping variants compared to say the modified adenovirus (AZ).
You can be as agile as you want during development. Your agilit
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People have enough vaccine hesitation with the current formula now. Change the formula and watch that climb, they be better off calling it a new vaccine IMHO
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So because some people are dumb others cant take advantage of the latest science. If that is the motivation than just scrap the mrna vaccinesand go with a whole virus traditional vaccine which will have p protein antibodies as well and handle all variants (though not as well as mrna)
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They are that dumb! Just keep the mRNA science and update the marketing materials presto change-oh a new Vaccine...
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I had heard March for when to expect tailored Omicron boosters
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It wasn't out of context, it was just using the available information at the time (which turned out to be mostly correct).
People vaccinated have a lower infection rate, faster recovery rate if they do get infected, and much lower hospitalization/death rate compared to unvaccinated.
That's not to say there couldn't be a better vaccine or one tailored for the delta variant
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> It wasn't out of context, it was just using the available information at the time
The science "at the time" is always wildly different than what happens in real life. About efficacy, about masks, about variants, about doses... everything is always being corrected. Which is fine... but at what point do you stop believing the bullshit.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/2... [cnbc.com]
Israel says Pfizer Covid vaccine is just 39% effective as delta spreads, but still prevents severe illness
And this study [bmj.com] claims 80% (several months after vaccination).
And both the Israel study and BMJ study claim well over 80% protection against hospitalization & severe illness.
They didn't issues a delta specific variant because the evidence didn't support it at the time, and in retrospect, they were right.
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"They didn't issues a delta specific variant because the evidence didn't support it at the time, and in retrospect, they were right."
Correct, the decision has shown to be the correct one. An inconvenient truth for the Trumpers.
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Why are all your links from half a year ago? Surely you've heard more up to date medical advice and seen more up to date studies on vaccines since then
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Uhh... because the delta variant was over taken by other variants, so there was only a small window?
I bet you thought you were on to some big conspiracy, lol.-
The delta variant is still active, it was not overtaken 6 months ago. Also, using today's information wouldn't suit your narrative, and if it "was only a small window" why do you give a shit?
"I bet you thought you were on to some big conspiracy, lol."
I bet you think you appear intelligent, lol.
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You sure shows me with all those supporting links.
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https://www.economica.net/majo... [economica.net]
274 out of 349 sequencing tests are "probable Omicron", with the rest being Delta.
Romania exited the fourth wave (Delta) a couple of months ago.
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But plenty of research came out with analysis after the window that you seem to be ignoring. Here's the first result when googling "vaccine effectiveness against delta": https://www.bmj.com/content/37... [bmj.com].
It's a study from last month, here's the conclusion
Now it wasn't hard to find this research, which is why I suggested that you haven't bothered to look since your saw something 6 months ago
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"The science "at the time" is always wildly different than what happens in real life. About efficacy, about masks, about variants, about doses... everything is always being corrected. Which is fine... but at what point do you stop believing the bullshit."
Yes, you described literally how science works...and then called it bullshit. The best understanding is the best understanding, it is not "bullshit" even if it turns out to be wrong. You know that, of course, you're just an asshole.
"Israel says Pfizer Cov
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> Yes, you described literally how science works...and then called it bullshit. The best understanding is the best understanding, it is not "bullshit" even if it turns out to be wrong. You know that, of course, you're just an asshole.
If I gave you a True / False test and you scored 0 out of 10... I would be impressed, but not for the reasons you're thinking.
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It was only a matter of time before a more evasive strain came along. Beta was more evasive than Delta.
Fauci said the v1 vaccines were effective against Delta. They were, particular Moderna's.
He didn't say second generation vaccines wouldn't ever be needed.
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